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Discussion on Dealing with a Bucking Horse
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Member:
Sjeys
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 2:39 pm:
I rescued a 20 year old very skinny HUGE quarter horse from an auction about six months back. The Family that was there selling him had a couple of little kids and said he was great with kids.  He was horribly skinny, grown out feet, the works. He is now beautiful, a bit plump and shiny. I started working with him on the ground and noticed that he was fine on the lunge line at walk and trot but at canter he looked like the Tasmanian devil and kicked out at me.
Under saddle, at the walk he is fine (both in arena and on trail). He can go first, middle or last of the pack (though he prefers first). I also trotted him on the trail (20-30 seconds) several times.
When doing walk/trot work in the arena or an open field at the trot he will throw his head down and try to buck.
I tracked down the info in his papers and the 2nd to last place that had him (hunter jumper barn) was a training stable and they said he was used as a little kids horse but he got too unruly for the little kids. He soon grew too unruly for the larger children to ride so they sold him. The trainer said that he would be going along doing great flat work and his head would go down and he would start bucking.
We have had him vetted and there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with him that would cause him. We are fairly meticulous about saddle fit, so I'm comfortable its not that.
When I rode him to flat him for even 30 seconds, he would try to buck. He got his head down (but because I knew of his tendencies, I wasn't about to give him a chance to really buck me off).
If its not physical, do you think I should just go back to ground work? Maybe its a respect issue and he's learned to be ugly to get out of work? On the lunge line he has such a huge reaction to cantering that I'm concerned that if its anything like that under saddle that it could be hard to stay on. I'm not worried about him bucking me off, but just want to know how best to address this.
His other ground manners are excellent, but he appears VERY worried when someone gets on; maybe a bad "cowboying" experience from his past? I'm an equitation rider so I try to be as quiet and unobtrusive as possible while riding.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 6:13 pm:
Others with much more knowledge will post I'm sure and it sounds as though you have much more knowledge than me ...but my two cents is yes, begin with ground work before you ride and gain his trust and respect. Could it be a strength issue?...just a thought
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Member:
Sjeys
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 6:41 pm:
Yes, I wondered if he just took advantage of them and they got off. Though I'm surprised the trainer would, unless he was just too big for her to handle. I've had horses buck before but from spooking, high spirits, angry and this just comes out of nowhere--BAM--head is down and there he goes. I'm going to try in another post and see about always turning him with one rein when he does it so he can't continue to throw that head down. You never know, he could always just give a couple of crow hops and give up. Or not
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 6:53 pm:
My four year old gelding slowly, over the course of six to nine months, started taking over "control" and could sense I wasn't as much of a leader as he needed me to be. He'd buck at the canter on the lunge line, try to tear the lunge line out of my hands, run close to me to intimidate me, kick out, etc. I subsequently watched and learned Clinton Anderson's techniques, which I think are the best ones out there; not because he's a horse trainer, but because he's a people trainer.
Start with his ground training. Even Clinton Anderson's book gives you enough tools to make great progress, although his Lunging For Respect series is excellent. Because your horse is 20, it may take more than just a month or two of ground work. You need to earn his respect, but also overcome whatever his previous experiences have been.
Your horse's diet is important. Oftentimes, a horse that has put on a lot of weight in a short period of time will act differently than a malnourished one. Make sure you're not over-feeding. I'd cut out any sweet feed, and stick to basics.
Aileen makes a good point that perhaps being out of shape can make your horse uncomfortable. By working him in hand and on the lunge, you can start to improve his physical conditioning without the extra burden of a rider's weight. Keep him lunging until he settles down. My horse bucked at the canter, turned and cantered in the opposite direction when he wasn't suppose to. We just stopped him and made him go in the right direction. It took a couple of months, but he eventually stopped all the testing. He found out that he would have to continue lunging regardless of what antics he tried to pull. Eventually the antics stopped.
Most importantly, don't be in a hurry to ride this guy. He needs to be convinced that you rank higher and will be a good leader. When he doesn't do what you want, make him move his feet. Back him up with energy if he gets into your space. These are ways horses communicate their higher ranking, so you should do that too.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 7:46 am:
That's a difficult one, Suzan.
It sounds like he does not know that canter is work and not playing, and as if this is not enough, he was inadvertently taught that a buck here and there will result in him being left in peace.
There is a fast way to fix this. A confident rider who can apply the whip strongly every time he bucks. This, of course, will produce quite a sprint in the beginning, so the rider must be able to handle this.
Unfortunately, this will teach the horse that he can not mess with this particular person, but it will do very little to discourage him from torturing everybody else.
Also, since you say he's always worried when somebody climbs aboard, the whip will not help him relax and trust his rider. Only use this as a last attempt when everything else fails.
A better approach is to start where you see the first problem, which is canter on the longe.
It is difficult to work on this alone if a couple of bucks or him kicking playfully at you intimidates you. You may need help.
I'd put sidereins on him. We use them long, to teach a horse to take a good contact, but they can also be used a touch shortened to control an unruly horse.
Work his trot first. Do not ask him to canter on the longe until his trot is almost perfect. Anyway, a correct canter can only start from a correct trot, just chasing him into canter from an unbalanced fast trot does not help.
When he's good at trot, ask for a few steps in canter. Not more than ten, just enough that he does not understand that you stop him immediately whenever he canters. Slowly build those few steps up to a full round or two.
When he's good at cantering a full round in relatively good balance and control, I'd add a passive rider. A rider who does nothing but sit there, one who can sit the bucks out should they occur.
Once he is ok with the rider's weight, I'd remove the sidereins and give the controls to the rider, while I stay in the middle of the arena.
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Member:
Sjeys
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 8:27 am:
Thank you everyone; what great advice! I was really worried that even If I did ride through it, he would try it with the next person. I agree that the place to start is on the longe line, this time in a round pen so that when he does "take off" (he's a HUGE Horse--maybe 17'2) that he can't really go anywhere and the round pen will control his movement.
I just want to say to this horse: "You could have been horsemeat...don't you realize how close you came?" Of course, he doesn't understand that. I strongly suspect that the people who bought him before me couldn't handle him and either put him out to pasture where he starved (DrOught conditions here) or maybe they starved him out of meanness. Or maybe to control??? Maybe they though a weaker horse would be easier to control?
In any case, I'd like to eventually find him a home as a trail horse, but obviously we have to get the bucking to stop first. By the way, his quarter horse papers say his name is "Ultra Wimpy" which isn't true at all in this case!
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 2:36 pm:
I would not use the whip on him when riding. I would first review all ground lessons, and make sure he knows walk, trot and canter, and of course "WHOA" on the lunge line. I like my horses to know the words as well as body language. Saved my neck a few times!
Anytime he tries to buck on the line, I would totally with all my strength, yank his head to facing me and hollar "NO, WOHA". Let him stand for a few seconds, (like count to 3) the wiggle the line and tell him "BACK". If he doesn't back with a wiggle, do as Clinton Anderson says and "wiggle, wave, wack" The idea is a buck leads to his head being pulled around, and then backing, which is work for a horse.
Make sure he does "whoa" and stay stopped also, at all gaits. We don't want him to think "back" immediately everytime so he must know what you are asking.
I had to do with Cody, who is 7 now. He just loved to put his head down, squeal and buck up a storm. No matter if he was on the line, or I was on his back.
He tried it twice with me on him. The first time I hollered "NO", pulled his head to my knee and DrOve his hindquarters around with my boot...I may have even had spurs on that day...(I don't use them to often, worry I'll hurt myself, grin)
The second time he did it, I put my hand on his withers, and this time pulled straight up with one rein. And again said "NO" in very clear terms. I then released the rein, and brought it around like above and did some circles.
He still squeals and bucks, but only in the pasture.
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 3:19 pm:
Hi Susan,
How does your horse react on the lunge line without a saddle? Does he still buck?
I ask because a friend of mine had a mare that would do the exact same thing as your gelding, just out of the blue, bam, she'd buck. After many trips to the vet, where nothing could be found, she started experimenting with her tack.
As it turned out, the horse had very very sensitive skin and was bothered by anything against her skin except leather. She had been using alot of tack that was nylon. Sometimes that nylon will develop sharp burrs where the holes are. Once she changed out her tack to softer material that wasn't irritating or poking the horse's skin, the horse stopped acting up, and is now winning barrel races.
I don't know what kind of tack you are using, but that may be worth a try.
Nicole
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 4:37 pm:
I had a similar experience as Nicole. A friend of mine had a gelding that started bucking - he never had before. It turned out he had a sore back. After some treatment and a change in saddle she never had a problem again.
If horses could only talk!
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 4:47 pm:
When I first got my horse he was a great bucker in and out of the saddle. On the lunge when he bucked I would drive him forward as fast as he could go in the circle. The reason being, bucking is a way to stop working ( unless its an energy thing, though I will still do it). After driving him forward every time he bucked he realized that bucking made him work twice as hard and he really did not want that. In my case with the riding and bucking he learnt to do it first because of saddle fit, once he learnt how to do it he did many times a day. I was riding bitless and my horse learnt to get his head down at an angle so as nothing would get his head up driving him forward while his head was down turned out to be a bucking bronc experience . He did it down hill, after landing from a jump any time he knew he would have a chance. smart bugger. anyway I put him back in a snaffle and put spurs on for a while to drive him forward. He hasnt had a real buck in a few years now, Ride without a bit and off he goes. Dont get me wrong the bitless bridle is my favourite bridle except its not great for a bucking horse.
I do have to say every horse is different and what might work for one might not work for another. It all depends on why he bucks, how long he has been doing it. This will determine the best way to stop it. I would not let him stop or stand after bucking for even a second. That's like rewarding them Thats what they want to do. They are thinking backward they need to think forward.
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 8:05 pm:
Hi Susan
I second Angie's advice. I've had to ride a few cold backed and also young horses that were bucky and find that using one rein to pull the horse's head immediately right around to basically where your boot is and yelling "no" at the same time works wonders. Obviously you need to eliminate all physical problems first for why the bucking is occurring but if it boils down to a bit of naughtiness, the head pull to the boot, yell "no" system does work. But you also have to be brave about it and that's not always easy.
My big gelding, Warwick, is not a bucker as a rule and an advanced dressage horse but if he's feeling rather peppy, when asked for a canter depart he will squeal like a pig and sometimes buck into the change. He has learned that a sharp "no" stops him in his tracks. Unfortunately his younger brother, Alnwick, isn't quite as amenable and the head-to-boot-yell-no scenario works far better with him at this early stage of his training. I am completely confident that the need for this will disappear as he progresses.
But you have to be consistent and aggressive. If you have any doubt, get someone else to ride the horse who is. As long as there's not a physical factor involved, this is a training issue and it will go away in time with consistent and positive reinforcement. You can't be wishy-washy with this as it's potentially a very dangerous situation.
Good luck!
Sue
PS - I don't like to ride buckers any more. Way too old and creaky!
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 9:27 am:
I'm with Christos, when he goes to bucking don't stop him, push him hard. It's very difficult for him to buck and run at the same time so he will have to make a choice. A good friend always says "make the right thing easy and the wrong difficult" (Clinton Anderson says something similar but my friend is 60+ so I think he'll get credit this time )
So let him lope nice and easy when he does it right and drive him forward aggressively when he bucks and kicks. I'd do this on the ground because I'm a wimp and you will get one hell of a ride
I'll admit that when I'm mounted I choose to circle and drive them forward, the ride is a little more tame that way.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 11:39 am:
Ditto Cristos and Alden.
Of course, assuming all physical issues have been resolved,When a horse starts bucking when asking for lope, etc. it is usually a defiance issue and he is seeing if he really has to do it. What I try to do is ride the buck as well as push him forward in the circle and continue working hard. When he stops bucking, the rest is the reward. If we simply stop the buck and let him rest without the work, he gets just what he wanted and is more apt to do it again and again. I strongly advise to go back to the ground and try to duplicate this and handle in the same way ... bucking = work ... settling down = rest. Alden is correct, it is one hell of a ride. I am a trainer, but I am now in my 50's and the desire to ride a bucking horse is long since gone, but it does still happen occasionally. I have found that good solid ground work with a purpose generally makes the desire to buck disappear. You must never reward the wrong behaviour but be careful to note and reward the slightest try initially.
DT
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 10:58 am:
Has anyone ever seen Chris Cox's Shows on bucking problems ?
The techniques are not for amateurs but they are effective.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 1:06 pm:
Shelly,
I used his methods with a very ticklish 4 year old. He was freaking out over anything going around him, front cinch or back. He was standing for ropes and bags going around him but the tightening of anything around his mid section sent him into a frenzy.
So I used Chris Cox's methods and got good results. It was very hard though; my first attempt the horse got away from me, the head part! So I had to start over again. And timing is important, in fact timing is everything!
I can now move this horse's front and back end with the rope around him any wheres. I haven't gotten him to back yet with the rope around him, and not sure if I will accomplish that.
You are correct though, it is not for amateurs...must be brave (or crazy) and strong, with a clear concept of what you are doing.
Poor horse, he was my first one to practice on, but how else do you get past "amateur?"
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Member:
Sjeys
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 4:21 pm:
I agree about "How do you get past being an amateur?" We act like being an amateur is bad or something to "get over." I think most of us have enough sense to make good decisions on what we are and are not comfortable with around horses. That's shown by seeking out information and asking these questions in the first place.
I will be interested to view the Chris Cox tape, not because I'm necessarily going to use it, but because it sounds very interesting based upon these comments. I love watching great horsepeople work with really tough horses.
I learned a lot from this post. My initial reaction was to quietly sit through it and ignore it, but my new plan is to send him to work, turn the head a bit and ride hard right through it. If he's going to buck, then he'll learn that bucking means some concentrated flat work and moving, moving, moving those feet. thanks, everyone!
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 8:42 pm:
You go girl
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