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Discussion on Just beginning again...
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 5:56 pm:
Finally riding Brave again after 2 years  BUT boy do I have issues! I never used to slouch before...now I do...I can't seem to find the seatbones AND keep my frontline open at the same time unless I'm constantly thinking about it. Which is hard to do since Brave is a bit squirrely right now and I'm also trying to keep my legs long, strong and quiet to keep him straight but forward and reaching for the bit as well. There are a zillion other things I'm working on but these seem to be the most important right now.
Any mantras to repeat to myself over and over while in the saddle or just any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Here's a pic to give you an idea of what I'm dealing with.
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 6:23 pm:
Centered Riding by Sally Swift has some excellent imagery to get yourself lined up nicely. You might want to start there. The thing I try to remember is that our head weighs quite a bit (30 pounds, I think) so it's important that we hold it up over our neck and shoulders with chin up!
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Member:
Sureed
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 6:36 pm:
Aileen,
You are just out of shape and adjusting up top to control below because your muscles are weak. Try not to let yourself develop bad habits.
I haven't read that book, but I've heard good things about it. Visualization really helps.
Have fun and relax. It will all come together. I started riding again after 20 years off and I am 58. It all comes back. It has helped me to ride with an instructor too since I do little things that I don't know I am doing, like cocking my wrist or tipping forward, and she calls me on it. If you don't have an instructor try putting up a mirror or have someone take videos or photos of you riding.
Also, I know it sounds silly, but someone told me to count...1,2..1,2..for rhythm, no matter what I am doing.
Finally, pay attention to your posture when you are not riding, especially when you are working on the computer or driving. Make sure you have those shoulders rolled back and you are getting a lung full of air when you breathe. That will help you get those muscles trained and it's also better for your health overall.
Take care,
Suzanne
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 7:02 pm:
Sally Swift is a great book. It will all come back, take a few lessons just to hear what you need to work on, you will be fine. dont worry so much it will only make you tense.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 7:58 pm:
Thanks Dove and Suzanne
Swift's book is one I don't have...will go shopping
I am taking lessons, even leased a schoolhorse to help me more...
She is a MUCH easier ride, takes the contact, I don't feel so willey nilley on her, here I hadn't found my seatbones among other things. It is MUCH harder for me to ride Brave, the first pic is our fourth ride and he's making me work for every step, so I get all out of whack all the time The more I read the more I really want to ride correctly. It just sounds like such wonderful harmony!
Thanks Katrina. I guess I want Brave to know that riding shouldn't and won't hurt. I feel like I need to be extra diligent. Today's ride was much better, but of course, no pics of the better ride Thank you and I'll try to relax more (with my shoulders back tho)
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 8:18 pm:
AILEEN!! i see NO helmet again.. If you are slightly uncomfortable on him then why are you riding without a helmet.. remember it only takes one fall !!!
Both pictures look good, first picture you appear to be trying to hard to march him out.. or that is my guess, the second one you have a good line between your elbow / arm / wrist/ bit.. Looks to be a good connection as well. Legs are in good position, of course you could try to pull your toe in more .. In riding dressage there is always room for improvement .. remember these are a moment in time.. we haven't a clue what happened before or after that freeze frame..
You look good... a good mantra.. HANDS TOGETHER AND DOWN.. something i tell my grand daughter over and over.. ( thumbs up too )
keep up the good work..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 10:03 pm:
Thanks Ann
Haven't ridden Brave without a helmet yet...I don't think... The mare (second pic) you are correct, I did not wear a helmet all the time with her 
Good hand mantra now what about the shoulders and front line My instructor today said that as soon as she reminded me to make my elbows heavy, it opened my frontline...we need a song for me to sing 
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 6:35 am:
Nice pictures, Aileen. Good posture, happy horse.
About the long leg issue ... forget about it! It is something that happens, not something you can do. Do not try to push your heels down and your leg long. It is a very common misconception that doing this will improve your seat. It will not.
It makes your leg stiff and dead (not breathing with the horse), it lifts your weight off the saddle and it throws your seat backwards against the cantle. Don't do it!
A long, steady, anchoring leg is the "byproduct" of a secure, independent seat. Not the other way around.
A big "secret" behind a secure, independent seat is relaxed, well stretched quadriceps. This is actually the major effect of riding bareback or without stirrups. The weight of your leg stretches your quadriceps and your seat "opens".
But you can do this without riding bareback. Stretch your quadriceps (carefully) before riding. Take a break to stretch them again every 15 minutes or so.
If the horse is safe, bring your feet back and up, hold your ankles with your hands and lean backwards to stretch. Carefully, you don't need to break those muscle fibers to teach them the lesson. Do the same in walk.
Search with your fingers where the quadriceps meet the pelvis, in the front of your hip joints. You will find quite a bunch of thick, powerful tendons. This is what you must slowly stretch and adapt to riding.
PS : I can't tell clearly in this picture, but it looks as if the saddle sits too high in front. This also throws your seat back against the cantle. Try placing the saddle a tiny bit further back so that it sits level. Using a thinner saddlecloth will also bring the pommel down one touch.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 6:51 am:
Pushing the heel down and forward, pressing the seat against the cantle and leaning back is very good for a beginner's first ride or two.
It is a very secure way of sitting, as it throws the rider's balance back into the saddle no matter what the horse does. I find it helps a new rider to develop a feel of security in the beginning. It is unnecessary, if not confusing and downright impossible to teach a beginner a balanced seat in his first rides.
But it must be corrected after this introduction, towards a more sensitive, independent seat that can be used as an aid in guiding the horse and will also free the rider's legs so that they can be used as a means of communication.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 7:31 am:
Aileen,
Another way to feel the muscles Christos is talking about is to pretend you have no legs from the knee down, stretch your knee down and sit tall like you are a pendulum. Looking straight ahead. All the while pretending you only have legs to the knees. This imaginary will also help you find your seat as you are not relying on your lower legs to stay on. Not saying you are, you look great. Dont use your knees to stay on they are stretched down and long. Remember to breath and relax and feel the horse.This is one way Sally Swift descibes it.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 10:56 am:
Thank you Christos, I do stretch those muscles, but not as much as I should. I'll be more diligent about that, I'll also ride without stirrups more often. I'm trying to sit on my seatbones, open my frontline, and sit up at the same time. Is it really such a delicate balancing act?
Oh and I'll doublecheck the saddle... Thanks!
Thanks Katrina, good imagery that should help with Christos' exercise
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 11:08 am:
Along with Centered Riding, a great companion read is "Simplify Your Riding," by Wendy Murdoch. Inspired by Sally's original classic, it expands on those concepts. Great illustrations. I think SS wrote the intro, if I'm remembering correctly. Anyway, a terrific resource. Good luck!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 12:56 pm:
Is balancing such a delicate act? Yes and no. It is a very delicate and very complicated act, but nothing you can do manually. Don't torture yourself over something impossible.
Balancing your body over something is indeed a very complicated act. Make this something a moving animal and this balance becomes complicated enough to be impossible to analyse and describe.
But you do not need to analyse it. Even if you could, mastering the balance would be faster than analysing it anyway. Just let your brain do the work. It is like walking stairs. If you try to do it manually instead of automatically, calculating the position of each body part and placing it accordingly, you will most certainly fall. If you do it in auto, it is very unlikely that you'll fall.
It is the same with riding. Give your brain a break, let it do its job. Occupy yourself with something else while your brain works on the balance issues in the background.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 1:05 pm:
Let's not forget, protect that brain with a helmet while it works on these balance issues for you.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 1:32 pm:
lol... yes sir. He's a good boy, but he also hasn't been worked in 2 years... so yes, I will be wearing a helmet
Which is another reason for this thread, I need to keep my mind occupied on ME, so I don't worry about HIM ... he can be a skittish sort, but it's usually only one scoot per ride. Very sensitive and is aware of every type of tension in me. His one scoots are usually testing me, which is fine...nothing like rearing or bucking...and I've actually gone WITH him thus far...thank goodness ... after a scoot it's quite easy to get him to a rhythmic walk
Thanks for all the input!!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 2:48 pm:
Aileen, Sally Swift also has videos to go with her books. Anything else I was going to say has been said. Too bad we don't all have someone like Christos to give clinics! Sure could use someone like him around here. The cut off at the knees bit really helps. Also, the imagery of taking a deep breath and squeezing all the air out of your body starting with your toes, working up your legs etc, all the way to your head, then let it slowly fill up again. For some reason this really helps me relax into my seat, and be more relaxed on the horse. Keep at it. You look great, esp. in the 2nd photo.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 3:30 pm:
Thanks Sara,
The breathing sounds like it may work for me too... thanks! The second photo is me on a schoolhorse I leased, she is just a gem and has taught me a lot. As long as I sat correctly -- for the most part -- off she would go. With Brave tho (first pic) ...hmmm...it's a challenge. Behind the bit, takes a lot to get him to take contact, won't go forward, won't go straight, if I don't keep my legs guiding him... off he goes wherever he wants. SO MUCH more work on him so I get out of position on him a LOT. But hey, at least I'm riding him again
Suzanne, I was hemming and hawing about buying this balance disk I'd heard about, did so, it came today. I feel a huge difference in my posture already and I've only been sitting on it for an hour. I think this will help me immensely off the horse and eventually on.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 3:34 pm:
Thank you Terry for the book recommendation
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 5:55 pm:
Aaaargh, I hate to sound redundant, but please please ALWAYS wear a helmet.
It is often the quiet horses who get us, because we relax and don't expect anything. Of the two major injuries I've sustained from horses, one was a fall after a long , slow walk of over an hour. The horse and I were both practically asleep when a loud noise happened. Horse stepped left, Erika went right--right into a fractured pelvis!
Other was trotting around the pasture and next waking up to see paramedics and cops. Still don't know what happened that time, but my helmet had a BIG crack in it and I got a helicopter ride! I shudder to think what my head would have looked like with that crack.
Sorry, off topic, but it is sooo important. I'll step down now...
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 6:20 pm:
You can admonish me all you want...as long as you give me a riding tip
And yes, I'm wearing my helmet all the time now
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 6:36 pm:
Christos, you wrote in another thread:
"But a thoughtful rider will learn to control, accommodate and guide this power and instead of restricting it develop it even further, into monstrous ability and willing cooperation, into a dance which the ones who resort to harsh methods will never even dream of dancing."
THIS is what I need to do with my boy. Could you please elaborate what you would do for a horse that was trained to hold the reins and push forward or crank and spank?
I'm trying to hold the reins steady at the correct length and let him find the contact -- which of course gets me out of balance because I have to push him into a loose rein...but do I have the concept correct? Do you have another way of doing this?
Can you come to California?
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 7:31 am:
I do not understand, Aileen.
Are you holding the reins on a fixed length and this results in the horse working on a vague contact, mostly no contact at all, sometimes pulling the reins out of your hands?
What exactly do you mean when you say you get out of balance because you have to push him into a loose rein?
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 7:31 am:
Are you saying that he dosen't accept contact? He might need to learn how to give and accept the bit. I would first concentrate on yourself and don't worry as much about how he holds his head just keep soft contact. worring about too many things at once is going to make you stressed. Once you are happy about yourself and feel confident you can teach him to give and accept the bit. Usually you start this with one rein when they give to the left and right then they learn verticly. This takes time.
Years ago I thought I would touch up my dressage as I hadnt shown since I was a kid. My instructor had me hold the reins firmly for long periods of time. This was totaly against what I thought. I followed her advise. My horse hated it He started to lean on the bit was sluggish and unmotivated. He doesnt like the bit in the first place. Hated work in the arena. He started getting heavy in my hands where as before he was so light. I stopped the dressage lessons and had to go back and teach him to be soft again. With my horse he had to be rewarded very often by DrOpping the reins every time he gave and accepted contact. Slowly I kept contact for a bit longer and a bit longer he accepted that because he new he was getting a release. Now he holds himself by himself without being supported by reins. Some dressage people I know want the horse to be held and supported by the reins. I was told by one dressage instructor that too many people dont ride with firm contact. They say that the horse will get softer after they reach a certain level. Why not have them soft in the first place. Maybe I am dumb, but That is against what I believe in. That is not want I want. I want self carriage.
After getting off subject, I think you should just ride with soft contact and let him put his neck and head where he wants it (as long as its not in the air) until you are happy with your own riding. Then go ahead and teach him to accept contact.
Katrina
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 10:23 am:
I hold the reins at a length that if he were to accept the contact, he would be slightly in front of the verticle. Brave would rather have no contact. But each time we ride I do get him at least reaching for the bit as long as my hands are steady and I'm in the right position. Once he starts to reach for the bit, I add leg to encourage it, then give the reins letting him go forward/down/out. But that doesn't last very long (mostly because I lose my position because I'm urging him with my legs and throwing my seat away), only about 10 steps then his head comes up again and the reins go slack and his tempo slows and he loses all rhythm. So then I have to start over -- beginning with getting my seat correct again.
Before this horse came up lame, he was trained to do (at two and sometimes three gaits) halfpass, shoulder/haunches in, renvers, counter canter, simple lead changes, and he would sometimes offer a little piaffe. However, not with me riding him
Katrina, yes, my goal is also self-carriage! I do know that if he doesn't do something it's because I'm not doing it right But I would like him to accept some form of contact from the beginning. I want him to use his back and come through. I want to condition him correctly and without force...I have been told in order for him to build the correct muscles, he must use himself. Hence my concern. This poor guy has been through hell and I want to do him justice this time. He deserves the best You're correct in saying that if I worry too much I will become tense... and I do... but I am so dang anal, if I have it all in my head on what my goal is and how to get there, it eases some tension... weird huh? I truly wish it wasn't this way, but oh well. The other thing is that if I have something to focus on other than him, I AM more relaxed
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 10:25 am:
btw, this is only at the walk, not trotting for at least one week, more likely two.
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 12:35 pm:
Glad you are back in the saddle - now don't forget to smile lucky girl! If the horse was at one time pretty advanced, invest some time on the lunge with sidereins. He will need to recondition his topline to accept the contact, and that way you can watch him do it. You could lunge for 15-20 mins on the days you don't ride, but it is also a great 10 min warmup and gives me the advantage of checking my horse for soundness and mood. Stacy
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Member:
Sureed
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 12:36 pm:
Aileen,
I think you are just beating yourself up with all this thinking. You haven't ridden in two years and apparently, if I read this right, the horse hasn't been ridden either. Give yourself a chance.
First, those riding muscles are out of shape, give them a chance to remember what they were doing, to lengthen, to stretch, and to get stronger. Bitting a horse from its back is pretty hard. Are you doing any roundpen and side rein work with Brave to let him find the bit?
Third, I am no dressage rider, but this discussion sounds like the classic dispute between the Classical Dressage (natural carriage) and Modern Dressage (hold tight)folks. You will come up with a wealth of information just by googling "Classical Dressage".
I would take Christos' advice. Turn off your conscious brain and let the subconscious take over. You are doing all the right things, including taking lessons and riding a horse that lets you work on you and not worry about the horse, and you are taking it slowly. You will be amazed that your own horse will improve as you improve and become more confident.
Suzanne
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 1:26 pm:
Thank you Stacy, yes I am lucky and happy. It's so great to be riding him again. Only working at the walk right now, which is one of the reasons why it's more difficult for me...but we'll get to the point of sidereins on the lunge next month I think if all goes well.
Suzanne, yes, I can see the way I write that I give the impression of beating myself up. I do have high expectations... but I am also realistic. It wasn't long ago that I was afraid to ride him, the mare solved that...but she is leaving this week. I appreciate your input, thank you Suzanne
I read Erik Herbermann's Dressage Formula (GREAT book!) and found these:
Five Points of the Neutral Position:
1. Nape of neck in collar
2. Lift ribcage
3. Shoulders back and down
4. Bent, heavy, pointy elbows
5. DrOppable forearms (then carry your hands without losing the "DrOppable" feeling)
And Five Elements of the Driving Influence
1. Lift ribcage
2. Tip chair (posterior pelvic tilt)
3. Ride horse and hips through elbows
4. Ride chest through shoulders
5. Kneel through your heel
I'll be using these I think
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 1:45 pm:
If it makes you feel any better I am a worry wort and also have high expectations of myself and my horse. I am a perfectionist also. I have learned over the years to be happy with baby steps. I hate worring so much but at least it makes me a more consious rider, at least I hope so.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 3:18 pm:
Thanks Katrina ... I do feel that being conscious of how he is feeling and how I am riding is important right now, but I also see yours, Christos', Suzanne's and so many others points being to take it easy... Baby steps are exactly the things to focus on right now.
It's just great to get so many other points of view so that I can take what I need! Thank you Dr. O for providing such a wonderful resource
Thanks to all!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 6:03 pm:
Ok, Aileen, got the idea. Get ready for a long, beautiful journey.
Let me attempt to explain the most difficult part, ie the independent seat. It is the ticket to this journey, and, as such, the difficult thing to obtain. Once you have it, enjoying the ride and directing it to your taste is all that's left.
An independent seat is about balance. It is not about posture, not about anything fixed. Nothing can be fixed on a moving horse. This is the most common mistake people make on horseback. They are trying to fix their position according to what they are told is ideal. They are torturing themselves for years trying to hold their hands and legs immobile. And they do hold them steady. Actually from the first day. You must have serious neurological problems to not be able to hold your hands or legs steady. You can, and you do it from day one.
But the horse is moving. As a result, your steady legs and hands are all over the poor animal. And you try to hold them steadier. And the horse is trying to figure out how the heck to compensate for this stiff creature on his back. Of course, the only way to deal with it is to hold his back as still as possible, moving only his legs. And so he does, and the situation seems to improve somehow. Only for you to realise, just a few days later, that this is getting monotonous, that your journey will not have the destination you thought, the scenery does not improve and you still can't see the sea. You can continue this way. Wandering aimlessly through the equestrian continent can be fun for the very adventurous. But, for the rest of us, isn't it better to visit the good spots only ?
So let's return to the equine departures. Let's see how we can obtain the correct ticket, the legendary independent seat.
We talked about balance a couple of posts earlier. Your brain will process the movement, figure out the necessary adjustments and apply them automatically. Do not attempt to do it manually. The adjustments required are too many, too fast and too subtle. Use your brain ! Theoretically, you should not interfere at all in this process. You should not hold with your legs, hands, teeth or anything else. When you lose your balance you should let fall, climb up again and so on. This is the fastest way to develop an excellent seat, if you survive the falls. This is what kids do, they think falling is great fun. That's why we envy the seat they develop so fast. This is the way riders are trained in the Spanish School of Vienna. They simply fall.
For most of us, however, falling is not that much fun. And there's no pressure to proceed that fast or to such dramatic perfection. We can cheat a bit. We'll hold on to save our bones, we'll let our brain process half the movement, then, when things are a bit more secure we'll let go and let this thing in our head figure out the rest.
This is where a serious mistake occurs. People hold on with their legs. This stiffens the lower half of the body and impairs the brain's ability to detect the movement and compensate automatically. It is like trying to learn balance on a bicycle with your feet on the ground. It will never work. If, however, you hold with your hand on a wall or a rail, put your feet on the pedals and let roll a bit, voila! You start getting the hang of it immediately. You don't actually do anything consciously, your brain micro-adjusts your body automatically.
We need to do the same in the saddle. We don't hold with our legs. They must hang like dead in the stirrups. But we will hold with our hands. Not on the reins, of course. We could hold on a neckstrap, but that disturbs the horse a bit, teaches the rider to lean backwards against it and is not such a good support when we lose balance sideways. So we will hold with the inside hand on the cantle and with the outside hand on the pommel. This may give a somehow awkward feeling, especially to riders who are used to ride crooked.
Needless to say, we don't school horses or riders in walk. Walk is to rest, relax between trots, for warming up and cooling down. It is not work and we always ride it on a loose rein. Loose, not long. Do not put a horse on the bit at walk, it is a very advanced exercise. Performing it too early will ruin the horse (in your case a smart, educated animal) and you don't give your brain enough input to process.
To trot without holding the reins one usually employs a lunge line and somebody on the ground. Good if you have it, but not necessary in most cases. I prefer to do without it. This way the horse focuses on me and not on the person on the ground. You can trust most horses to trot happily and quietly on a loose rein. It is very easy and very relaxing for them, and they happily settle into it when they understand that this is all you want. So make a knot in the reins, rest them on the horses neck, take hold of the saddle and trot ! If you are uncertain that your horse will cooperate, do this gradually. Let the reins loose slowly, for longer and longer periods every time, and see how he behaves. If he speeds up bring him back to a good tempo and DrOp the reins again. He will soon understand.
You will be very surprised to find out how well a horse can be guided with legs and weight alone. Most people introduced to this find it so incredible and such great fun that they make a face when you tell them later to take the reins and proceed with learning a good contact and finer control.
When you are confident enough, you let go of the cantle first. The outside hand remains on the pommel. You don't let go of the pommel until you are relatively happy with your sitting trot. If you do, the transition to the canter later on will be imperfect and scary again. Sit the trot properly, then let go of the pommel.
Your seat should be fairly good at this point. But only at working trot, at a somehow stationary balance. Before you hurry to grab the reins again, learn how to extend and shorten the gait with your weight and legs only. Put your hands on your waist and work those transitions. You will soon find that you can easily do trot-walk-halt and halt-walk-trot transitions without reins. Try trot-halt and halt-trot, it works well with a smart horse.
At this point you'll have already understood much more than one can put in words. You'll be quite able to continue your journey on your own, discovering things you never thought are possible. And along with everything else, you will, of course, understand the greatness of a horse's soul.
Enjoy your journey !
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 7:02 pm:
Christos, you do have quite the gift! Thank you so much!
Until we can trot (rehabbing still) for a couple of weeks, what if I just play with him at the walk with my seat and turns and halts and such? I promise, no reins ..
I have to catch a ride, but will write more later...thank you
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 7:46 pm:
Christos, Now that was perfect. Cant add to that.
You have a way with words
Katrina
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 7:51 pm:
Christos, Now that was perfect. Cant add to that.
You have a way with words
Katrina
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 8:14 pm:
sorry double post
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 11:18 am:
I loved your post Christos and have taken it to heart However, my instructor has me hold the reins in order to help my confidence level. I will practice as you described above but not totally reinless (as I mentioned in a previous post). I don't want to lose the confidence I've gained...but I will definitely compromise and not using the reins at all is a goal I will work actively toward.
My instructor has wanted me to trot -- she too says the quickest way to better the seat is at the trot -- but I hesitate because I don't want to push him too fast. He's been rehabbing himself for most of this year in pasture. The last couple of weeks is the first he's been asked to do something under saddle in two years.
Thanks to all, I have a gameplan
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 1:53 pm:
Confidence on the reins is very fragile, Aileen. Do slowly wean yourself out of it. Slowly but completely !
Train yourself to hold on the saddle. Not only it will improve your seat dramatically, it will also teach you that the saddle is your safety item when things go wrong, not the reins. You will develop a reflex of pulling yourself into the saddle when the horse misbehaves, instead of pulling yourself out of the saddle by means of the reins and falling.
When things go wrong let go of the reins and pull yourself in the saddle. No horse likes running or bucking like this, he will stop.
Hang on the reins instead, lifting your weight off the saddle, to find out that every horse likes to run and buck like this.
Pulling hard on the reins makes a horse run. Giving him the reins and sitting heavily in the saddle makes a horse stop.
Especially if he has been trained that a loose rein means end of work, walk and relax .
It is really sad to see so many people falling, sometimes even pulling the horse down with them by hanging on the reins, without making the faintest attempt to hold on the saddle.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 2:12 pm:
Thanks Christos,
I am careful with them and I am MUCH better at giving the reins to him and sitting deep when he spooks - moreso than two years ago anyway and he likes it much better too, stops, licks and chews. I'm trusting him more and I think he's trusting me more...
I'm riding him tonight and will try to relax more, especially my legs, while turning, stopping and going forward. Thanks again!!!
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Member:
Lhenning
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 3:15 pm:
Hi Aileen,
So much good information here that I cannot begin to match. I do not see anyone giving advice on exercises however. Riding is a physical sport and having muscles that you can call upon to support your body or use to accurately cue your horse are imperative.
I use one of those big bouncy exercise balls to build up my leg and abdominal muscles. They also work great for learning better balancing skills. Try balancing on it with your legs off the floor. It's all in the abs! All I do is 20 minutes four times a week and it has helped to improve my riding tremendously. An added bonus is looking and feeling better. I find horsemanship an excellent motivator for me to exercise. Whenever I get the "I just don't feel like exercising" blues, I just think of my horse and my desire to be a better rider. Not only does that get me out of my chair and working out, but I see the improvement while riding as well.
Good luck
Linda
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 6:35 pm:
Thank you Linda
I completely agree with you! I'm working on my core as we speak with the balance disk. My exercise ball is sitting unused because it's too small, my knees come up past my hips. However, if I can balance on that I could probably balance on anything! I'll give it a try
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Member:
Hboggini
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 7:09 pm:
Hi Aileen
I am a pilates instructor and have been practicing myself for 7yrs.. It has helped my riding tremendously!!!! If you can find a good instructor in your area and can get to any classes it would help. Also again Wendy Murdochs book Simplify your Riding was a great help and her clinics are also wonderful. Happy riding.
Heidi
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 7:56 pm:
I second the idea of sitting on the exercise ball, no feet on the floor.
Also, with the feet on the floor, move your hips in a circle, both ways, and to 4 corners, like you are touching each corner of a big square. I find all this helps right before going out and riding, or just to stretch and have a mini work out while watching tv.
Can't remember the last time I did a complete "Ball" workout, but love it for anything that helps with riding!
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 8:12 pm:
What a great thread, with lots of information for both rider and horse. I am still a student of the horse and will hopefully be one for life. One aspect of beginning a horse's training which I find extremely important, no matter whether the horse is young and just starting out, or older and in need of training or re-training, is using building blocks for the horse's education. I sometimes feel that classical (dressage) training sometimes conflicts with the practices in natural horsemanship (NH). I'd like to represent a bit of the current thinking in natural horsemanship training.
In a nutshell, the horse must respect his handler in order to listen and make a genuine effort to do as asked under saddle. This respect is achieved most successfully through round pen or lunging work, as well as in hand work on desensitizing and sensitizing the horse where needed. Once the horse understands voice commands and that the handler is in charge, under-saddle work begins with the safest key to control: the one rein stop. This starts with flexing the horse's head at the standstill on the ground, then at the standstill under saddle, then finally at the walk, trot and canter. The all-important communication to the horse herein is when the handler/rider releases the reins whenever the horse "gives" to the pressure.
After getting the one rein stop pretty solid, then work on getting the horse to go and stop as soon as you ask. (As Clinton Anderson puts it: the brake and the gas pedal.)
To have the horse relax, flex vertically at the poll and move in self-carriage, the horse can achieve this on his own by being suppled laterally first, left and right. His muscles will begin to develop but, more importantly, he'll become much softer in your hands. Lots of circles in both directions. One key difference in classical vs. natural horsemanship seems to be at what point riding with rein contact is introduced. In NH, one trains the horse with no rein contact. Throw the reins away; ride on a loose rein; use only your seat and legs. If you must use reins, use only one at a time. I've found the horse is much more relaxed and willing when they are not in fear of sudden mouth contact/jabs. Riding on a loose rein is somewhat scary for many English riders in particular. It feels like you have no control of your horse. But you do, because the one rein stop is so effective, and you set up your horse's training in such a way that each step builds to the next.
I personally don't like to use outside aids, such as side reins, tie downs, etc. unless there is a safety reason for them. I'm finding that time and putting in the training time is the best aid to communicate your requests to your horse. If they're calm and assured you're a good leader, they will try their best for you. Anything that suggests a shortcut to getting the horse you want may hamper, rather than help, your efforts. But then, it's the time you spend working and communicating with your horse that's the real reward anyway.
I guess it's quite obvious by now, I'm a huge Clinton Anderson fan. He's absolutely fabulous at teaching people how to communicate with their horses. Hope I didn't offend any classical riders, it certainly was not my intent. I just think there have been great strides in getting us laypeople information on how to communicate with horses by breaking everything into sequential baby steps.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 9:19 pm:
Dove2 I totaly agree with you. I still do dressage but clinton anderson training does work with classical dressage, not always with dressage intstructors or the new modern dressage with reins held tight. As you go further down the lessons you see how well it works with dressage.I have always done my own training and it worked out great. But I got his series riding with confidence I am finishing the second series, cant wait for the third. I never in my wildest dreams could believe the difference in my horse . he is so soft it blows my mind away when I ride. I get weird looks at the dressage barn where I ride especially when I do the exersise with no reins cantering in a perfect circle. I know they talk about me that I am nuts. I have read almost every book out there ,and studied most of the natural horsemanship but this guys series blows my mind. he is amazing. I think anyone can train there own horse using his step by step exersises. Some Dressage instructors who say you need the reins would be too terrified of DrOpping the reins and still be able to control your horse. I have heard the excuse that you will bang the horses mouth when you pick up the reins. nonsense if you tell you horse with you body first then slowly pick up the reins. I do have a dressage and cross country instructor that comes occasionaly to the barn across the road. I go to her because she is one that understands how I want to ride and agrees. She gives me pointers and a sort of check up with my riding.
So I too will endorse this guy.
Oh and the balance ball I also do it every day. great invention
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 10:07 pm:
Hi all, great advice and I am rereading daily all this stuff to store.
I am , however, still confused by the one rein halt thing. I understand giving to the rein and turning the head all the way back to respond. But when it gets to the halt from a walk, trot or faster. I still get circles for the most part. Or I get a halt, then the horse not getting a turn...?
I worked with a young horse per the advice I got about this. It did seem to help. But I have the problem...when is one rein a halt, and when is it a turn?
I love the idea of loose reins, and if you think about it, western riders have an advantage of the curb bit that rotates before it contacts. This gives the horse warning that a halt will be asked for--much kinder than sudden contact on a snaffle!(Even though most of us are taught that a curb is a severe bit!!).
Having ridden all my life, with some horses what I would call near perfect, I still respect what you all are telling us to make things clearer between horse and rider. I hope I can use some of these methods to communicate better.
I know that my hands are my weakest link. Side reins with lunging are something I have never done. Perhaps that is a key for my horses to understand? Wish I had a round pen. So much easier than a lunge line.. I have to borrow a pen on the occasions I need one. But I do see immense respect that builds on just a few sessions.
I do love Clinton Anderson. Whom do you think would be easier to get to my farm, Clinton or Christos? (Great trails, good breakfast, fine hospitality!!) Massages can be arranged
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 10:09 pm:
Oh, and Aileen, thanks for starting this. The same issues you are facing are with all of us a one time or another.
Erika
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 12:15 am:
Heidi, I just got in the mail my pilates "circle" dvd and aid Will be starting that soon...look for a thread on pilates, I'm sure I'll need it. Unfortunately, no pilates instructor nearby.
Angie, the exercise you speak of reminds me of the balimo chair...I do these on the ball. What exactly is a FULL ball workout? Thank you
Dove, that was a great post My horse is a gem on the ground, it's in the saddle he's a bit ... umm...flighty I guess you'd say and that's due to the tension in me. He needs constant reassurance from me right now, when he scoots I just give the rein and a little scratch and tell him he's ok. We're still working on the trust. Trust in me that I won't yank on him, and trust that it won't hurt him when I ride him and then there's the all important issue of me trusting him... I truly appreciate your post.
Erika, I reread it too The one thing I've learned is that riding is so simple and it is incredibly complicated at the same time. Hopefully someone will help you on your question because I am SO not qualified
Tonight I got on and just walked on a long rein. He scooted a few times tonight... but I just gave and sat deep in the saddle, he blew his nose, and licked and chewed. We practiced my in the saddle exercises of stretching the quads, doing the fluff (which is taking your leg off the saddle, press your leg back with your heel toward the horses' flank and let the leg come into position naturally...without moving the seatbones. Can you say OUCH!) But it works My leg felt long and relaxed.
We walked, halted, walked figure eights, halted, mostly from the seat I did have to help out with my legs, but no rein aids, so I wasn't completely relaxed and using my seat alone, but I will keep working at it. He was quite animated tonight and kept trying to chew on the rein, so I HAD to hold onto it But I did not aid with it. I rode with a friend and we just stood at the end of our exercises and chatted and he completely relaxed. I got off and then got on again for just a few minutes, then ended the session.
He will soon learn that riding can be fun again and it won't hurt and I will learn to relax.
Truly wonderful input from the vast knowledge on this board. Thanks to everyone!
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 6:33 am:
Erika thats because your Horse hasnt got the one rein down pat yet. Only move to a trot when he is perfect at a walk. The difference between wanting a turn or wanting a stop is your legs. for a stop no legs just sit deep for a turn you use your inside leg at the girth so he he can tell the difference. You know when he is ready to trot when as soon as you pick up or go to pick up the rein he stops his feet. Hope that helps
Katrina
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 6:59 am:
Dove is right, tight reins are sold as Dressage. Don't buy!
Erika, once again, you're too much ! 
A well trained horse should work with the weight of the reins on a snaffle. No need to close the bit, it is broken to sit more comfortably in the horse's mouth, not to use it as a nutcracker.
I ride my monstrous warmblood in a french link snaffle. When working with other people in the arena, in a more relaxed tempo, I have to change the normal reins with thinner ones so they're lighter and he doesn't go behind the bit.
Hands and legs are not the weak link. Never. The seat is. Observe this in every single rider, hands and legs are much much better than the seat for every given level.
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Member:
Lhenning
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 9:50 am:
Dove2,
One thing I might add to Katrina's explanation of one-rein stop is to keep letting your horse do the circle/ turn without your legs. The moment he stops turning, then praise him. He will very quickly understand that bringing his head around without your legs on means stop. As she says, get him good at a walk before moving up to higher gaits.
I also love Clinton Anderson's methods and have worked through his "Respect" series with great success. I am a first time horse owner and he has actually made a psuedo-trainer out of me. I tried learning basic dressage from a very respected instructor and my horse became stiff and resistant. I am sure it is my inexperience, but I am back to Clinton's methods and my horse is back to being soft and relaxed.
Lovin' this thread!
Linda
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 9:54 am:
Christos.. now we get into a whole nother training issue.. BEHIND THE VERTICAL.. ! I too, have a gelding that is lite as butter in my hands.. but will tend to duck behind me.. Ahhhh this i feel is so much harder to fix then a very heavy horse.. ( my mare ) .. any ideas.. ???
I send him forward ,I 1/2 halt and send him into my hand.. sometimes i put my hands in more of a hunt/ jumping place ( FEI trainer told me to ) thus trying to get him to push out the nose.. Its a battle that I am not sure will ever end...
The gelding i refer to is in my profile.. You can start a new threat if you so desire..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 10:34 am:
"Hands and legs are not the weak link. Never. The seat is." This bears repeating I think
No problem answering the btv question here, that way it will be easy for me to find it later
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 12:31 pm:
That's the most difficult one to fix, Ann.
Correcting this is an exercise in concentration, reflexes and sensitivity.
The trick is simple to describe, but very difficult to achieve : Think of the reins as sticks and try to push the horse's nose forward with them.
When they're slack you have pushed too much, you bent your sticks and you're not pushing the bit any more. When they're tight you're pulling, not pushing.
The idea is to work always at the far end of the contact without DrOpping it. If the horse DrOps the contact, touch him again, even if that means going horribly behind the vertical.
Do not work on this at walk, it is not possible to follow the horse's moving head with such detail. Canter is good as it brings enthusiasm but trot is by far the best.
Tricks that will help: Lighter reins, a french link eggbutt snaffle, positioning the bit a tiny bit higher in his mouth, holding your hands a little bit higher, leaning very slightly backwards, extended trot.
Tricks that won't help: Work at walk, work on a loose rein, longeing with sidereins, leaning forwards, any devices to "teach" him a contact, collected trot.
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Member:
Lhenning
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 12:51 pm:
Sorry Dove2, I meant to direct my last comment to Erika L.
Linda
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 1:13 pm:
Not a problem, Linda. Well explained. I might just add, from my experience, I found that if I waited until an exercise or training step was perfected, I totally bored my horse to death. I found it best to move on before the horse soured to what we were doing. My horse happens to think he's quite smart, so he sometimes gets insulted if I keep repeating something he feels he's understood already. Rather, I found it better to move on as soon as my horse understood what I was doing and was consistent in giving me the right response. Then I would continue with a new lesson but continue to improve the previous lesson. Mind you, this is my horse's preference. It's good to get in tune with how your horse learns best and stays interested.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 1:46 pm:
Christos, You and I are on the same page re how to work at fixing this.. It is a balancing act and actually being aware of something changing before it does.. ! This horse has a very fragil walk, I don't do anything in the walk but loose rein go where you want to go kind of thing.. Lunging NEVER in side reins.. He actually is so very balanced that he pushes from behind naturally and lifts his back without the help of side reins.. BUT with a rider, he becomes so lite that he ducks behind.. its a balancing act i have to ride every stride.. I was hoping you had some other magic up your sleeves on how to work this out.. This horse is 7 been lame 1/2 his life.. I am just now again getting him going, have not ridden him in 2 years got on him last week and its like there was never any time off, He / We are back were we left off..
Funny how that is..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 2:21 pm:
I'll look it up tomorrow, Ann, but I don't think there's anything else you can do.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 7:23 pm:
Aileen, I guess we took over your post sorry. But yes you are right the seat and balance comes first. But the legs and hands are added communication once you have mastered the seat
Katrina
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 10:36 pm:
No, not at all! I need the input for my guy because he too is very very light.
I quoted Christos because I wanted that statement to stand out for me when I reread the thread
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 12:24 am:
Ann,
When I started my gelding (12 yrs now) he was immediately behind the bit. It seemed that the minuet I took up the first light contact, he rolled his chin under. He was very happy going around all rolled up like a HO-HO. I had never had this problem on any other horse so I assumed it was not my riding that caused it. Chrisots has a great approach for the "thinking persons method". Much more sophisticated and I am sure more correct than what worked for me. I tried something like this for my boy but I think I hopelessly confused him, maybe my reflexes were too slow or I was just getting it wrong.
So I just rode him and did not reward the rolling under with any softness. Since he did not want to take any contact, I just took my own form of contact regardless of where his head was.
I also found half halt too abrupt to encourage him to take contact, it only served to lighten. On the other hand, shoulder-in was very effective on getting him to take contact on the outside rein.
A double jointed snaffle is a little easier for them to take into their mouths.
He may always be light but sometimes doing less will help more.
I also think the more strength and power they have the more contact they are capable of taking. So he may be just too out of shape.
The main advice to my ramblings is to keep your own form of contact regardless of what he is doing. When they reciprocate the contact keep your hands very polite and receptive but of course dont soften but support. Is this too abstract?
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 3:56 am:
Ann and Christos: sounds rather like Reine Klimke on swan neck horses? I agree with Shelley about shoulder in and any lateral movement at all in fact... I have one of these horses as well. Very light, but only loves to go behind the bit. I think I'm with Shelly in that I find the only thing that works is to keep your hands in the same position (the old wineglasses in each hand thing), but not hard handed, ignore the messing, concentrate on your own balance and work work work in trot and canter until acceptance. Sometimes. On a good day.
Imogen
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 7:07 am:
Couldn't find anything worth trying, Ann.
I agree with Shelley and Imogen, you must not DrOp the contact and give him relief when he is behind the vertical.
However, lightening the contact slightly and pressing him with the leg until the contact is firm again does work. In tiny tiny steps, over weeks or months, but it works.
Yes, Imogen, I believe Reiner Klimke suggests this very exercise to correct this in one of his books.
I disagree with collected movements like shoulder-in to cure this. The increased contact on the outside rein is a product of bend, not impulsion. Inside leg to outside rein is a picture we use to somehow visualise what we need to do, but it should not be taken literally. Impulsion from the hind leg should be felt on the inside rein in shoulder-in. What you feel on the outside rein is the horse's rhythmic bend in order to facilitate his hind leg stepping under, not the thrust from the leg itself.
Ideally, you'd feel tension in an alternating rhythm in shoulder-in. The outside rein stretches as the horse bends to lift the inside hind, he steps under, then the outside rein relaxes a bit and the inside stretches as he carries his weight forward with the inside hind.
If you can not feel the inside hind on the inside rein he is simply balancing with the inside hind, just catching his weight, not carrying it forward at all. He lacks impulsion and he overbends.
Building impulsion and refreshing his idea of going forward through extended trot and canter is, I believe, the best way to fix this.
And let's not forget your profile picture and what that trainer told you, Ann. Work on the bit with your hands too low will cause the horse's nose to dive down and under. We work with low hands and a very light contact on very green horses, to invite them to stretch and develop their topline while they familiarise themselves with the bit at the same time.
We don't work horses on the bit with low hands!
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 9:15 am:
At first when reading the lateral movements might work.. but after Christos reminded me that it is COLLECTED work i have to back away from that idea.. This horse loves collected work, its easy for him and well perfect oportunity for him to duck behind as well.. The photo in my profile is him with only 90 days on him..Thus the low hands,, I don't have any current shots, but then again he has been lame most of the time since then.. 
My ride yesterday on him was with hands up the crest of his neck gently urging him into the hand.. we had moments.. This kind of riding is uncomfortable for my old muscle memory body.. so I AM having a rough time of it.. thus poor guy..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 10:30 am:
Oh, Ann, dear Ann...
Do not ride with your hands stretched or low.
Open your posture and keep your hands maximum 20 cm in front of your stomach, 20cm apart (ideal is 10). Bring your elbows close to your body by opening your chest, not opening your hands.
Try to let your knee DrOp and ride with legs a bit behind the girth.
Do not gently urge him into the hand, put your hands in place and ask for extended trot. The transition into extended trot is one of the most powerful movements a horse can perform, ask wholeheartedly if you want him to perform wholeheartedly. If you beg him, he'll only give you a scrap of it.
I do not know who started this stretched, open, low hands school that has become so popular, but it is definitely wrong ! I have never seen one person riding like this and the horse not being behind the bit.
Putting your hands low and touching the horse's mouth is a way to make him snap his poll loose and lower his head. The moment this happens the rider must let go, maintaining a very very slight contact, if any, as the horse stretches down. If you ask for a firm contact with your hands low the horse's nose will go under himself, there's no place else it can go.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 4:13 pm:
Actually ''open low hands'' is seen all the time in the show ring to get the horse to stretch down for the chewy circle.. I have to say it works well my other horses & they do not duck behind but gradually reach for the contact as they are stretching down.. ( Training level & First level tests )...My newly backed horses are more accepting of the low open hands as well.. I hope i can attach a photo of a mare that has less then 60 days on her.. I am teaching her to stretch to contact... Grant it, i should have bent elbows and better posture, but you can see what i am talking about..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 5:58 pm:
Ann, you're killing me. It is the horse that must stretch down and forward, not you.
Stretching your arms like this closes your chest, gives you an inflexible hump, makes you lean instinctively forward and makes you grab with your knees a bit (or you'll tip over). It also hurts your lower back.
The horse is trapped by your stretched arm. It is unyielding. You can only give by slipping the reins (or by leaning forward). But slipping and taking the reins every 3 seconds and leaning back and forth all the time is not exactly the idea.
Trapped like this he can not receive the elasticity, the momentary release in the contact required to develop powerful, crisp transitions. He'll accelerate slowly, like a truck, the transition being barely visible.
It is very easy for him to be fed up with this unyielding, annoying situation and fall behind the vertical. The fact that most horses are tolerant, sweet creatures, should not be a reason to establish wrong practices.
By the way, your horses look magnificent.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 6:02 pm:
Show ring ? Meet the champions :
https://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/how.php
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 6:22 pm:
Haven't gone to the site you provide, i am still laughing at your comments """ killing me"""
Ok here in the states there is the practice for the dressage test in the show ring.. Training level tst 3.. #13..B Circle right 20m,rising trot,allowing the horse to stretch forward and downward before B Shorten the reins.. In the picture of the movement it shows exactly what i am doing in the above Picture ..
There is no trapment nor unyielding at all. in fact the horse is suppose to be slowly stretching, chewing , reaching for the contact and they do.. I can put the horses head anywhere i want it, all the way to the ground or up with the pole high just by using my seated 1/2 halts and my YEILDING hands asking them to reach / stretch ..
Thanks for compliments, my horses are all home grown..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 6:38 pm:
OH NO are you advocating ROLLKUR.. ??
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 7:14 pm:
This practice is very popular in Europe too, Ann. That does not make it correct.
First of all, this test aims at proving that if you DrOp the contact the horse will, on his own accord, stretch out in search of it.
Putting your hands low and cueing the horse to DrOp his head is not exactly that, is it? It only proves that the horse has learned a cue to lower his head.
IMHO this exercise should be 0 if the rider puts his hands down.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 7:25 pm:
Who, me?
You keep telling me that low hands are correct because you saw them in the show ring, Ann. If everything you see there is correct, then rollcur is correct too.
You asked what the problem is and your horse goes behind the bit. I told you, and I explained why and how to fix it.
A FEI trainer told you the same in person.
Any book you open will tell you the same.
If you believe show ring riders are a more reliable source of information and a higher standard to follow, well...
Good luck!
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 8:41 pm:
wow what an interesting site. Iv'e never seen so many over bent horses. Very informative.
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Member:
Leilani
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 12:43 am:
Christos, I so agree. When I first started showing at local QH shows there was this one trainer who everyone "ooo" and "aaa" over and he had horses with noses down on the ground; hence the peanut roller rule. They looked so unhappy.
I often, actually regularly, wonder why some people get into horses to begin with. Ego? Maybe. Power? Maybe. Probably a little of both and more.
Lester Buckley (can be seen in this month's H&R in Brazil with Dr. Miller) started my young QH mare. I have often told him that he has a strong feminine side (his wife smiles). He is such a kind man who truly loves horses (like you and all of us here at HA). I told him once that I would rather be remembered as a good horsewomen than a good rider.
I have seen so many excellent riders that could give a rip about the horse they are riding. I love this site. Leilani
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 8:58 am:
I know, Leilani, some people may get involved to pump their ego, make dirty money or whatever else. But I really don't think it concerns us.
In this group of people here, I only see honest horsepeople who make a tremendous effort trying to improve their own and their horse's life, perhaps also making an honest living out of it if they're lucky to find correct circumstances.
We are all trying to improve, to correct our mistakes, to clarify misconceptions. It is a very difficult process, realising and correcting our mistakes. If they were obvious and clear to us we wouldn't make them in the first place.
But we make a good effort here. A very rare, honest effort. Difficulties occur, but we'll see them through in time. I have my issues, you have yours, Ann, Aileen and everybody else have their own. In time, we will recognise and correct them.
The false shine, the ego, the lies, the unacceptable practices we see so often are not horsemanship, are not our world. They will rise and fall like everything fake. In 10 years from now we won't even remember them.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 9:38 am:
Whoa , Whoa , Whoa, I am not saying that becus a big trainer does it makes it right.. I do show competitively and must do as the Dressage tests ask..I there for will ask for the stretchy/ chewy circle and school for it, Actually the horses welcome it, it feels good, its a break for them .. I for one will not over crank/spank my horses to any end..It is unforgiving/ painful and not necessary.. I asked about BTV becus I have a gelding that '' just does it'' there is no prompting , even on the lung line with NO side reins he will tuck under and go.. I do try what my trainers ask of me.. That is why I pay them, for ideas on how to get to my goals.. I WOULD NEVER DO THO ANYTHING THAT I FELT WAS NOT CORRECT OR PAINFUL if asked by anyone.. * & they never have *..
I too, have seen some awful practices in all disciplines of riding , specially behind the scenes.. and I have seen them win.. THAT DOES MEAN ITS CORRECT nor would I practice it..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots...
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 9:56 am:
Correction above.. THAT DOES NOT MEAN ITS CORRECT..
Ok.. Christos looking at the above picture me on the young green horse.. Does it look to you that she is uncomfortable or un willing to do as i ask of her?? ..It appears to me that her neck is softly stretched with a nice top line forming, no bulging muscles on the under neck.. soft floppy ears/ kind expression in her eyes..a swinging tail, she is reaching from behind, nothing blocking her !!! I see no expression of pain / discomfort or fear in that young green horse..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 10:17 am:
What an interesting discussion. I am just a trail rider, but my earliest riding experiences were lessons with German trainers, who start every horse with basic dressage principles.
I remember a trainer who would teach young horses to stretch out their necks and reach for the bit by riding the trot, in two-point, with the hands resting along the neck. Whenever the horse stretched down, the hands had to follow downward along the side of the neck. One of my earliest riding text (in German, by Mueseler) called it: showing the horse the way to the depth.
I looked at the link - cannot believe that this overbending is really practised so widely today. I know - the horses are huge warmbloods, and the riders mostly female, but ......
Sorry - I don't really feel qualified to participate in this discussion. But - keep it going. I never lost my interest in dressage.
Lilo
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 12:06 pm:
Holy justice this is, I am paying for all the years I tortured my trainer with similar discussions.
Of course she is not in pain/discomfort or fear, Ann. We are not talking misery and horror here, we are talking ways to fine tune the details in already good practices.
There is no need to keep your hands down. Low hands mean that the horse does not trust the contact or he is not relaxed in his work and he has to be constantly reminded to keep his head down.
With your hands in front of your stomach, let the reins slip. The horse should stretch and chew the reins out of your hands.
If not, the horse is tense, afraid to reach into the bit and distrustful to the contact.
So to instill trust, you touch him with low hands to trick him to lower his head, then immediately slip the reins and bring your hands where they should be. Then take the reins slowly to raise his head again. Then relax the contact without lowering your hands. He should stretch out and down. If not, trick him again by putting your hands low just for a moment and so on.
It is not many horses that stretch down on their own, you know. Of course, they'll do it if asked. But not on their own.
The test does not say to put the horse's head down, it says to see if the horse will stretch into the contact by himself. Cueing the horse to hide his mistrust is acceptable in small shows, but the lack of trust will not fool anyone in a higher level.
The horse trusting the contact and reaching into it is no small feat. Please, do not talk about it as a matter of fact. It takes a beautiful seat and very sensitive hands for the horse to trust them so much. Work!
The judge, of course, will not fill the cards with zeroes. People want to ride silly and call it Dressage. That's ok. Participation is good for the sport. But if one really wants to proceed to a higher level he should not be fully satisfied with the kind judge's friendly scores in lower levels. Foundation is important. Work!
Once again : Riding with low hands is very bad.
The hands being low already mean that the horse is tense or he has his doubts about the contact, so you had to bring his head down manually. Low hands also destroy your seat and balance, which makes the quality of the contact go down the drain.
Now if he spooks, turns his head to a noise or attempts an upward transition he will meet your stretched hand. That does not help his trust to an already unsteady contact. There's great danger that he will learn to avoid it alltogether. And yes, he may take such dislike to the bit that he'll avoid it even when it hangs on the wall.
Lilo is right, there are many schools that teach low hands.
I had endless arguments over this all winter in Germany and Holland. The trainer would ask: "doesn't he feel lighter now" and I'd reply "no, he feels empty and disengaged and dead" then he'd go "I told you to wear spurs" and I'd reply "there's no need to force him that much" and he'd go "but you can't allow the horse to do whatever he wants" and so on and on and on, to the point that after a couple of months I'd simply take this beautiful creature out in the forest and allow him to do exactly as he pleased. Which did include a magnificent passage, and half passes to die for, and 20 tempi and canter pirouettes and everything you could ever dream of a horse.
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Member:
Leilani
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 2:52 pm:
Christos,
My post was not intended to point to anyone at HA. I was merely thinking back to some of the people that I came across at the local shows. None of them are members of this site. Leilani
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 4:21 pm:
Of course not, Leilani, I do not think anyone perceived it that way.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 6:53 pm:
Christos, This may sound like a stupid question sorry if I sound dumb. but here goes any way. If you DrOp the reins suddenly as in when you are training the horse to accept the bit (for reward)after giving and staying on the bit as in natural horsemanship and they go in a long and low frame is this acceptable. Or must they chew the reins out of your hands. I feel silly asking this but after this discussion it makes me think of many more questions.
Plus I did a search on long and low and I was so suprised at how many horses are behind the vertical in nearly all the picture with riders with low hands some in correct position and some with hands forward, this is a very interesting discussion. I love your views on this.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 7:14 pm:
oh and I forgot to say why I am asking this. When I was taking dressage lessons my horse was forever wanting to stretch he hated the bit contact at that time and would constantly sort of ask for me to let him stretch. My thought was he was trying to get me to DrOp the reins, Like he wanted to pull the bit out of my hands but didnt. My instructor thought it was great that he went so long and low. It was confusing for me at that time because one instant they wanted tight reins the next they said let him stretch when ever he wanted to. I know that it is wrong to let them make the choices. My horse will go long and low whether I DrOp the reins or let him take them slowly. Which is better. sorry for the silly questions.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 7:39 pm:
I am not sure I understand, Katrina, I'm not at all familiar with the terms of natural horsemanship.
Accepting the bit means the horse working on a steady, elastic, soft contact. No, you don't DrOp the reins when the horse works like that, it is confusing and disorienting.
But you do DrOp the reins when you first teach a horse to relax in his poll and stretch. Immediately when his poll relaxes, you let go and let him stretch.
Holding a contact the moment the green horse gives in his poll, then releasing it to stretch only if he stops fussing, can cause a lot of problems, depending on the horse's conformation and character. And it certainly does not teach the horse a correct contact.
The healthiest contact, I believe, is established by stretching the horse all the way down and out, working him like this on a loose rein for some time to get him relaxed and elastic in his movement and build his topline a bit, then bringing his head up and down slowly by giving and taking the reins smoothly with a soft, patient hand until the contact is smooth through the whole range of movement. The whole range meaning both when you shorten the reins and when he pulls them. He should be encouraged to pull them gently out of your hands, do not DrOp the reins to let him stretch at this stage. Just relax the grip a bit.
The finished horse in a working frame (not collected) should chew the reins out of your hands and stretch down and out whenever you let them slip through your fingers without any other cue.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 7:47 pm:
Stupid questions? You sound dumb?
It took me 3 years and a very patient trainer to figure that contact thing out.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 7:55 pm:
No, Katrina, he didn't hate the contact. He'd rip your arms out of your shoulders or go behind the bit if he hated it.
That's a horse that stretches willingly into the contact, searches for it confidently. A horse that loves to work on the bit. A rare, finely trained animal.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 11:49 pm:
Christos when you speak of high hands.. high hands are considered "classical" - and may have worked with classical type horses who are already high headed and naturally collected. But as technology and breeding have advanced, so has riding. It is now found that high hands result in leverage, and many horses go behind the vertical (thus feeling LIGHT), but this causes the modern horse to unload the hind end and DrOp the back, so you have high artificial carriage.
Look back to old pictures does the extended trot or piaffe compares to the modern horse? It doesn't really, the horses are much different, thus riding has advanced to fit the horse.
Also, interesting the talk of "trust" and in the same breath, you talk of "tricking" the horse - how many horses will trust if you keep tricking them?
Our conversation wreaks of the old "classical" versus "show riding" argument. However, when I see the horses and riders who have been riding
with a well known classical trainer all their hands are high, and their horse's backs are hollow. The poll is always high, regardless of
where the back is. I believe this is riding the horse's head versus riding the horse's back. Classical and modern will never agree with each other. Which is why you see so few classical people in the show ring - neither is
"right", each is truly riding a different discipline.
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 11:56 pm:
Christos and everyone,
I found the same sustainable dressage site regarding how the bit and bridle work, have posted it in another thread some time ago, I believe it might be helpful here too
www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle.php
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 1:34 am:
I am not a show rider or a dressage rider and do not pretend to have any expertise in either the terminology or rules governing the sport, but I believe I understand lightness and know what it feels like for a horse to be light, happy, and coming under himself correctly with impulsion.
I have rarely, if ever, seen anyone as happy, relaxed, and light as Dominique Barbier and his horses. If you have never had the pleasure of seeing him in action, then I encourage you to try to see him at a clinic or view his videos/DVDs. He is one of the most joyous riders I have ever had the pleasure to witness, and his love and appreciation for all horses and for each individual horse is a great model for any trainer. I have seen him ride with hands low and high . . . I am of the opinion that the rider's hands should be able to move wherever they need to go in order to maintain light communication with our horse partners. Riding is definitely not static . . . at it's best, it is a flow of intimate communication between us and our equine partners . . . and there are many nuances to communication, all dependent upon the moods, circumstances (safety first), and education level of the parties involved.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 6:52 am:
Thanks Christos, I guess my horse was teaching me yet again and I was reading his motives incorrectly. He is way too smart.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 7:04 am:
Ann, you got me totally wrong.
I never promoted "classical" or any other school. I am not a fan of any particular method. And I am not interested in "correct frames" or any discussion about them. Frames are wrong.
I think the phrases I have spoken the most in training my friends is "the horse's head is not of your concern, the head belongs to the horse, forget about the head" and "don't pull him, take only as much as he gives". Not that anybody listened, but I kept saying that anyway.
What I am trying to tell you here is that riding the horse on the bit with low hands does put a horse in a frame, a low one. Without you realising, but it does. And this is the trap with low hands. They hide mistakes until it's too late.
You are absolutely right, high hands will...show everything ! More often than not, the horse's back will DrOp and the hind end will disengage.
So everybody hurries to put their hands down and work the horse there, believing that this solves the problem. It does not. It only hides it. For a while.
Training like this will get you and the horse through the first levels unharmed. But should you want to advance further than that, you will find that the horse will not really collect, will not accept the contact in canter, will throw his head in pirouettes etc. That is the time to go back to basics and do it correctly, but nobody does this. Instead, they will rollcur the horse to a horrible bend, beat the bejeesus out of him to stop complaining, inject the muscles that haven't developed, canter him for 20 minutes to calm down and so on.
No, riding has not advanced to fit the horse. Western riding yes, I see great development towards the horse's comfort and correct training. Not in Dressage, unfortunately.
The horse's spirit and expression is lost. Suspension in Piaffe is long forgotten. Piaffe balance ? We don't even know what it is.
Instead of developing extension in the hindquarters and expressing it through the back and front end, modern champions will whip the horse to a bend to develop the muscles that lift the front legs into a caricature of extension. The really informed and technically advanced trainers will simply select a horse with proper conformation for this ridiculous expression and inject the appropriate muscles with anabolics. Yes, from that point of view, extension and the the desired conformation for it has changed.
Riders work more than the horses. They dismount sweaty, with aching jaws from grinding their teeth in the effort. And the horse is sweaty and stiff from being constrained, not from expressing his power and agility for his loved rider's pleasure.
This is not Dressage, it surely is a different discipline!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 7:31 am:
Holly, I can not but totally agree.
I am not familiar with Dominique Barbier's work, but knowing that he studied with Nuno Oliveira is enough for me.
And you may say you don't know Dressage but from what I've read in your posts you know all about it.
Your trained eye and judgement, based on your love for horses, is more proof of a method than I will, personally, ever need.
And I do enjoy the old French school of freedom and expression in training horses. It is nice to hear that Masters still exist to display the principles of horsemanship.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 7:42 am:
I have said many times that I can not help anyone win in a Dressage competition. Well, I can, but I won't. I think the reasons become apparent in this thread.
All I'm trying to do is help friends who love their horses develop abilities and general lines of thought that will help them enjoy their horses the most.
I am definitely not a Dressage trainer and -God forbid- I do not want to end up being one!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 10:12 am:
Just an update...had a lesson Friday, I told her what was said on here and she said yes, ideally that is the way to go, with no contact and for me to just improve my seat.
Unfortunately each horse is different, mine in particular likes the contact, he likes to be working, he doesn't like it when the bit moves around in his mouth... he scoots and scoots and I believe he is wondering when I'll grab hold. Trust is an issue here, but since I can't really work him and let him get his freak on ...so to speak ... it may be best for me right now to have contact.
Just to clarify, I'm not trying to get him on the bit (if he does, great), but I am holding the reins (not balancing on them tho Christos, promise ). Once we move up on the rehab schedule, things will be much easier and I'll be able to do more as you say, Christos, at the trot.
During the lesson, I had contact. The only time he scooted I wasn't paying attention. The best news is that she only nagged me about my elbows and my legs, not to grip, to relax...not everything under the sun and not my SEAT she said that was the best she'd seen yet AND he even came through ...so at least I'm making progress and it is due to this thread. It's so wonderful to get so much information, try it on our horses and see what happens!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 11:28 am:
That sounds beautiful, Aileen.
Try to trust him as much as possible. It's not easy, I know.
But you'll see he'll be worth the trust more and more as you proceed. It's not him learning, it is your developing trust allowing him to be himself that does the trick.
Think of this like learning to swim. What do you learn? Simply, to trust that you won't sink to the bottom. You don't learn particular movements to keep you on the surface. If you're taught any, it is only to keep your mind away from the sinking idea.
It is the same here. Relax, trust him, do nothing. You won't sink. Do not do a dozen things simultaneously thinking you'll save your case. You'll DrOwn !
Most important of all, do not forget to enjoy yourself. It's called paralysis by analysis and it is a detrimental effect of today's abundance of information.
My idea of training is that if the rider is not laughing and the horse is not playful, the lesson is a failure and I'm useless. It makes me feel like I have killed something.
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 6:36 pm:
Aileen,
Here is a book I mentioned on another post that may be helpful, it focuses on balance exercises and too developing core strength. People who have applied it have found the work very helpful and it made a significant difference to their riding. It helps develop that auto-brain function Christos and other have mentioned. The exercises develop your body so that you DON'T THINK your seat and balance, you JUST ARE your seat and balance.
Ride from Within (Tai Chi principles)
By James Shaw
Just an idea.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 8:29 pm:
Christos, that's exactly the key for me. I HAVE to learn to trust him... I'm getting better, but like today, he was pumped up and ready to go... wanted to trot and of course I couldn't let him. I think it was my mistake though, I think I was driving with my seat, I will work on that. Poor guy...
The mare went home yesterday, but the good news is, I'm allowed to come ride her whenever I want thank goodness, she was key to opening up my eyes and teaching me without worrying about what the heck I was doing, she'd just stop and seemed to say..."OK, now get yourself in order and we'll try again" I miss her already.
Ilona, that's a GREAT idea! Thank you so much!
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 9:16 pm:
Aileen, below is something else I recommend. Christos and the others had so much to offer I didn't think I could add anything. But every little bit helps, IMHO. (in my humble opinion).
Breathing slow, deep breaths is a wonderful counter to fear. It actually blocks adrenalin production in our body. Most people are not aware of this physiological connection. (A nice, sound scientific fact for us fact-lovers!)
What I tell the nervous riders I am around is deep breathe with consistent awareness, if you concentrate on breath its amazing how your body stays where you wanted it to be all along. I also recommend humming your favorite tune. Horses seem to love it, and the combination of the deep breath to emit the humming, plus the soothing sound itself seems to calm, settle and soften the rider which of course then does the same for the horse.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 10:27 pm:
Thank you Ilona, I will definitely try that. I think I will make up a song that incorporates breathing, relaxing, etc.etc.
Brave does like singing
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