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  Discussion on HELP...kicker on the trail
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Member:
Erika

Posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 7:41 am:

I thought I would resurrect this old thread now that trail riding/hunter pacing season is in full force. I know kicking out at other horses is a common problem. Can a horse be trained not to kick other horses? Or are some horses just "born kickers"?
We all come across this on the trail sometimes, and I am wondering how some of you handle it?
I was always taught to punish quickly and severely with a crop and pull the horse in rapid little circles if it threatened anyone. From the discussions above it sounds like "just tie a ribbon to his tail" is the solution.
I agree with the poster that says it is our responsibility to stay out of range of other horses, but we know that that isn't always possible. Besides, a horse intent on kicking can narrow that range pretty quickly if it wants!
Has anyone out there reformed a kicker, or have any advice for the isolated kick by an otherwise well-behaved horse? And how do you handle other people's kickers if they don't reprimand?
Member:
Erika

Posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 3:31 pm:

By the way, this isn't a current problem I am having, but have come upon it occasionally. Just wondering how some of you have handled it.
Member:
Ilona

Posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 8:47 pm:

One of our geldings is not friendly with other geldings or stallions. He's fine with mares. Any-one who rides him is instructed to stay at the back of the herd. They are warned that he will spin to bite if approached on the rear by anything but a mare. It is their responsibility to keep him at the rear, and everybody else's to keep away from his hind quarters. This has worked well and people who ride him love him to death and I've even had offers of purchase, knowing this idiocyncracy of his. Perhaps when going out on trail you could make some public request that people explain any possible negative behaviors their horses may display, that gives you information and choices up-front. Then as with driving, moutain-biking, any other sport, people MUST behave responsibly or simply not be invited again. I have one friend I simply won't ride with. Sad but safe.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 6:45 am:

This is an interesting subject, Erika.

Let me first say that bad attitude towards other horses when under saddle is very easy to prevent. But one needs to plan years ahead. Ponying does the trick. I now prefer to pony the youngsters very early in their life, the third week or so. Off their mother in the beginning, from other horses soon afterwards. This teaches them respect to the mounted horse. They may kick, bite, buck, wrestle all they want, they soon learn that a mounted horse is something you can't really fight with and you can't run from it either. They have to accept being caught, gently pushed, led, touched all over etc without complaints.
This is very important training and I do not understand why so many people neglect it. Its benefits go a very long way. I believe that a horse who has been trained to be ponied is a valuable horse. Backing him and riding him for the first time usually presents...well, not even some excitement. He already respects the man in the saddle, knows the verbal commands, has no problem with you putting one leg over his back, is already accustomed to you leaning some weight on him, knows that your leg pressing his side means go, knows the trails, is accustomed to traffic etc. Most important, he is accustomed to work in close proximity to other horses, to being touched, pushed etc. Pretty much an educated horse before you even climb aboard for the first time.

It is easy to teach a 2 week old foal to pony. His natural tendency is to do that anyway. With a grown up horse, especially one with attitude problems, it is a lot more difficult and some times very dangerous. You may be dealing with well established obstinacies, not a youngster's doubts, and definitely a lot more power. You need to ride a professional horse and be very confident in the saddle yourself. It may be better to turn him in to a ranch where they have experience in doing this.

On the trail now, I tend towards Ilona's approach. Until you fix the problem, people must be warned and things adjusted as safely as possible and from there on every rider can decide for himself whether he accepts the risk and wants to participate in that ride or not. However, I'd try to fix this horse's attitude rather than accept it as a fact of life.

Beating the offending leg does work, as does a tight noseband when the horse bites, but you may be better off curing the anxiety, the frustration, pain or fear, or the lack of training that brings biting or kicking, instead of just punishing its result.
Member:
Erika

Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 8:58 am:

Ilona, it is interesting how often a problem like this is directed at certain horses only. Doesn't make it any more acceptable though, does it, if you are the target or owner of the offender.
Christos, I really like what you say about youngsters. Too bad all of our horses can't be started by an intelligent trainer.
I saw a show about polo ponies not too long ago. It was interesting how they trained them to accept contact with other horses. Basically they rode a young prospect in circles, and rode another "professional" horse toward the first in the opposite direction. Each circle they each got closer and closer and as long as the horse tolerated it they would eventually be bumping each other as they pass. Very interesting. But of course the one they showed on TV was great with it. I wonder how many youngsters would not be!
Christos, at what point do you think it is too late to condition a horse to accept close contact? Or are some horses just naturally intolerant to it no matter what?
Erika
Member:
Christos

Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 2:19 pm:

A young horse presents very few training advantages, Erika. It is silly, has no principles to build on, can not concentrate on the task at hand and is very playful.
I prefer to pony them early (along with all basic training) only because they are shorter and less powerful, which makes the job a lot safer. Not easier, safer. It is also a bit safer for the youngster to be educated with the basics early, he can then cruise through his first three years rather uneventfully.
An older horse, say 3, 4 or 10yo learns much easier and much faster.

Yes, there are significant differences between horses. Some breeds come with a very slow fuse, some with an instant one. If you choose a horse with high reflexes, do expect that he has high reflexes with everything, even the things you do not like. So extra work is required to desensitise him with the things you do not want him to react to.
Member:
Ilona

Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 3:12 pm:

Erika, I don't quite understand what you mean by "a problem like this is directed at certain horses". So I don't know how to respond, except to re-iterate that we all participate and need to be responsible for the safety of ourselves and others. If I have warned about my horse and done everything I can and some-one ignores my warning then the results are on them not me, so long as I do all I can.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 3:50 pm:

I'm in total agreement with Christos. We pony all our young horses. It makes life a lot easier later on in life.

On the trail with a mix of horses, I firmly believe it not letting your horse "tail-gate." You should ride several feet in back of the horse in front of you. When the terrain permits, I practice making my horse wait, go off to the side, turn around, etc. Your horse should remember you are still in command. He isn't in a herd running wild across the plains!

I've tried using the red tail ribbon when riding the stallions in open classes, hoping again that people won't come up so close behind, or push us into the rail when passing, but it seems like none of the younger riders know what the ribbon means.

If you are on the horse that is kicking, imo it's a good time to be wearing spurs. The moment the horse even thinks about kicking, poke him with the spurs. He'll quickly get the idea that kicking isn't an approved behaviour.

If I'm riding with a crowd I often put a red ribbon on my horse's tail just so people will back off some and not crowd. I see so many people riding nose to tail, which I think is dangerous -not only might you get kicked, but the horse in front can get it's heels stepped on, also.
Member:
Ilona

Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 5:00 pm:

Nose to tail is dangerous for many reasons. If there is a mishap in front it gives you no chance to avoid joining the ranks of the unfortunates. Horses react and riders don't have time to respond, but too just end up reacting, not a good situation. On trail horses are not given the space to pick optimum footing, etc. I agree with Sara regarding always ensuring your horse is focused on you, the rider, by requiring unexpected turns, circle, direction choice etc. I do this so out of habit I had forgotten that it is a leadership reminder.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 5:17 pm:

You'll like this, Sara:
Two years ago I had to participate in a local folklore horse festival. Generally I avoid such events because they feel like a tragedy waiting to happen, but for social reasons there was no way out that year.
So I thought that I'll braid a red ribbon in this crazy mare's tail (for the same social reasons, I had to ride this particular nutcase). Not that anybody there would know what this ribbon means, but should an accident occur I'd have a point since a red ribbon is worldwide practice for a kicker and it is not my fault they didn't know and bla bla bla... Thank God nothing happened.
Nothing? Well.. Next year, everybody had braided a red ribbon in his horse's tail. Not for the reason I did, they still don't know what it means, they just thought it looked soooo cool!

How easily can some people make you cry...
Member:
Erika

Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 8:06 pm:

Oh, Ilona, I only meant that sometimes a horse will seem to take a dislike to another particular horse in a crowd and be aggressive toward it, and not to the others.
Of course, we all need to be courteous and in control of our mounts.
Member:
Ilona

Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 8:30 pm:

Erika,
Yes horses are wierd, just like people, can't always fathom why they have dislikes, and can't change their mind about those dislikes either!

Christos,
I have spent a lot of time in Greece over the years, you are right, it is not a 'horsey' country. I laughed out loud with your 'sooo coool' red ribbon story, I completely get it!!
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 11:58 pm:

Christos!!
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 10:31 am:

My gelding has always been very "studdy". especially on the trail. He too will pick a particular horse. I think he thinks he has been challenged. I basically have to tell every one to treat him like a stallion. No sniffing noses either with my guy, he will scream and strike. I have never had him tested but I imagine he just has a high testosterone level. I gelded him early because of his behavior as a baby.
But it is hard. So many people think that he will just get used to them riding right behind him. They say," that's alright, my horse will just learn not to tail gate". So what, I should let him kick them ? Of course not. I think they just dont sense the danger and it takes constant reminding on our part. I was thinking the other day if I could just attach a fly swatter to his tail so it wags back and forth in the horses face behind . . . !
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 4:50 pm:

OK...so if your child gets hit by a car, 'that'll learn them to quit playing in the street?" Gimme a break. Like it was pointed out earlier, a kick can be devastating...especially if you are miles from home or camp. I like riding, not walking a crippled horse back home because I was too foolish to be cautious. The people I trail ride with are responsible enough to be cautious of every animal. Yes, they will all kick. Might not, but could!
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 6:27 pm:

Accidents can not be eliminated, but I think a good lot of them can be avoided if we are not training or riding a horse we can't control.
If the horse I train develops dangerous habits like kicking, biting, bucking, rearing, running away etc, it means that he's beyond my ability. The responsible thing to do is, I believe, to seek professional assistance or exchange that horse for an easier one. Ignoring or accepting the problem only leads to more problems.
The same applies for riding. If my horse runs away, threatens or attacks others and generally behaves as if nobody sits on him, it means that he is beyond my abilities. In such a case I believe I am obliged to seek professional help or exchange the horse for an easier one.
Most of the accidents I have witnessed were far from surprising. It was not the first time that horse run away. It was not the first time that rider lost control. It was not the first time that horse bucked and the other one kicked.
I now just choose not to participate when I can visualise the accident happening.
You see, my colt starts to show white hair and so am I, and I'm dreaming of a day 30 years from now when we'll just lie tired on the paddock and dream of old times. And I want no avoidable accident interrupting this process.
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 6:39 pm:

Hi,
Until you are able to pony your horse and teach him to be alongside other horses and that the behaviour is unacepatable. There is another way to avoid this if you are quick to read your horses body language. I on occassion have encountered this when doing hunter paces with strange horses and he is hyped up. When I see him ready to kick I turn him fast as I can to face the other horse, Like hips over(does he move his hips when you ask) and wack him with the crop at the same time. You have to be quick. He soon learns that it is more fun to be pleasant. Now I say ah and ah means no and no means to stop what ever he is thinking.
It is amazing that no one knows the red ribbon on the tail. I have done that and still do . Its amazing that people in the horse world have no clue what it means. My horse hasnt kicked in years, but hey he is a horse and I am always prepared to stop him if I need too. I hope it helps.
Katrina
Member:
Erika

Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 9:23 pm:

Haha Katrina! I read your "ah" to my son and he laughed. I say that to my dog and horses whenever bad behavior appears immanent, too. Yesterday I said it to my fourteen-year-old son, and he was a little taken aback to be addressed like an errant animal! But hey, they are all my kids, aren't they?!
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 7:25 am:

Erika it is funny how we do that. One day at work (I am a hairdresser) I was day dreaming about my wonderful ride that morning. It was hot. And when my customer came to my chair I said take a seat while I hose you down. I was mortified. It just came out. Lucky my customer thought it was hystericaly funny.
Katrina
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 9:49 am:

The worst I have ever been hurt was due to the horse in front of me kicking at my horse. And it was my fault I feel. I was riding a young TWH, who insisted on crowding my step daughters sweet mare. Her mare gave many gentle warnings with her butt lifting up, a few "almost" kicks, before she nailed us. I was lucky I did not get a shattered knee cap as the blow was right below my knee. As it was, I was in a world of pain and had to be rescued as I could not ride home.

Had my horse been better trained before I took him out on a trail ride, the accident wouldn't have happened. True, my SD could of done more to "correct" her mare, but she was just being a horse and saying "back off". Something a foolish young gelding just didn't get.
Member:
Corinne

Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 11:37 am:

How many of you have told the dog to stand and the horse to sit? LOL
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 3:56 pm:

Corinne, luckily, over the years my dog has learned "horse talk." I constantly tell him to "whoa" and automatically "cluck" to him when I start to walk, etc.! The worst was when the boys were little and called one of them by the name of one of our colts. (Well, they did act a lot alike!) Now that I'm getting older, I just call them all "sweetie" and "darling" That way no one's feelings are hurt!
Member:
Green007

Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 4:04 pm:

Two things I have done (more than once!) in the past.

1) clucked at the vacuum cleaner when it was stuck on some object and no longer moving

2) gently patted the back of a car as I walked around behind it so it "knew" I was there.

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