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Discussion on Long and Low
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Member:
Charlott
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 9:26 am:
Can anyone explain to me how to teach a horse to go "long and low". I have read that this can help build up a weak back, but I'm not sure how to go about teaching my mare to travel this way.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 10:26 am:
Yes, many people here can explain it 
While I'm not necessarily one of them... I can say that I like to refer to it as forward (horse goes forward), down (head goes down), and out (nose in front or on the verticle). Forward is key here in order to get the horse to work over the back.
As you have contact, you get the horse forward, then you ask the horse to chew the reins out of your hands (allow no rooting or pulling from the horse), keeping the leg on to keep the forward motion.
I'm only responding to see if I have the right idea, you'll get MUCH better explanations
Let's see what the experts say
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 10:55 am:
I'm certainly not an expert, but know enough to warn you of letting the horse go on the forehand during this process having suffered the consequences first hand.
The exercise I use is to get trotting on a 20 meter circle, maintain contact with the outside rein which is what will lower the neck and then "play" with the inside rein to get flexion releasing when the horse gives, but maintaining contact. If posting, make sure to urge the horse forward with your legs when you're sitting. You want to push the horse forward into your hands. If your horse gets going faster, which is not forward, slow your posting. You should actually feel the horse's back lift and that really cool "bridging connection" thing as he steps further under his body with his back legs and his stride gets longer. Of course, you're supporting the bend in the horse's body with your inside leg during the entire process, pushing him into the outside rein. Oh yeah, remember to breathe too, I tend to forget that part.
If you let your reins get too long too quick, the horse will likely fall onto his forehand and it falls apart pretty quickly from there.
Good Luck,
Chris
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Member:
Charlott
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 12:23 pm:
Thanks for the advice, I will try those ideas tonight when I ride.
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 2:34 pm:
before jumping in to start a horse long and low, or to get advice on how to go long and low (which will help to improve a weak back), there's a lot of info that really should be shared. there are many different ways to start a horse going long and low. sometimes you start under saddle, sometimes you start on a lunge line or even standing on the ground. what kind of horse, style of riding, age of horse, general musculature, how the horse carries itself in general. i've trained more hunter/jumper and dressage horses than i want to remember, and i've started a lot of them in many different ways, depending on what was presented to me with the horse. while what you've been told is generally correct, it might not be the appropriate way to start your horse. you can teach your horse a whole lot of bad habits if you teach your horse to go long and low incorrectly, so be careful.
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Member:
Charlott
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 6:15 pm:
My mare has had back issues since I began riding her. She is 8 now, an appendix about 16 hands. She had a huge overreach and regularly pulls off her front shoes. She will be used for trail riding and some dressage at home, no showing. She has always had difficulty backing up has been sensitive, sore, tender in the back. She does not want to go forward at those times or do any bending. She has had every test known to man and most therapies. The best results we have had is with a saddle fitter who said even though being a big girl the area of her back that the saddle fits on is relatively small. So after trying many saddles we found one that worked for both of us. That helped greatly, but maybe because of the past history and her way of going she still has periods where we are dealing with the soreness again. I was reading a Jane Savoie book and she talked of a horse that sounded a lot like Kaya, and she said she had worked him with his hindquarters coming will under and his head and neck placed long and low. I understand the hindquarters coming well under, but wanted some advice how to get her to go long and low with her head and neck. Thanks for your comments I appreciate all the advice I can get.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 6:37 pm:
Iv'e always been taught that if the horse is correctly on the bit whether on the lunge in side reins or ridden the way to tell if they are working the correct muscles is that they want to stretch. My test was when my horse was greener and I had him on side reins Not tight just enough to keep contact when I finished working him I would still lunge and take the side reins off. He would automaticaly stretch long and low. That was my goal. If he didnt I was doing something wrong. Cant remember when or how that was taught to me. If you have ever watched clinton anderson tapes after doing some of the exersises the minute the horse stops he stretch's his neck down to relax those working muscles. Thats not long and low but a horse working correctly wants to stretch. My horse loves to go long and low when working he asks me all the time. The funny thing is I never really tried to teach him it just happens. I always thought he wanted to stretch too often , but my dressage trainer at the time loved it and Christos also said that it was a good thing. Then again my horse is too smart. The suggestions above sound great
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 7:06 pm:
I forgot to mention there is another great post not long ago where christos tells you how to do it. If you do a search you should find it.
Katrina
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 9:27 am:
First, Charlotte, you need to address the overreaching problem.
You can make the front hooves take off faster if you rocker the toe and square it off a bit.
For working long and low there are two recent discussions that may be of some help:
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/7/76063.html https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/7/76175.html
Do note that though many people agree with my point of view, there are several who disagree as well.
What is important in long and low work is to let the horse figure it out before you proceed further. Your only task is to keep the horse moving in a lively, relaxed tempo. He will figure the rest out. Try to interfere as little as possible. Very little contact with his mouth, if any, good balance, very smooth wide turns. You want him to develop elasticity, swing and impulsion in his movement.
What develops the horse's back is not his body's position in this exercise, it is his relaxation. Do not bother with muscle identification and movement analysis. A relaxed horse uses his back, a tense horse keeps it stiff. As simple as that. Let the horse lower his head and relax in his work and his back will develop along with his overall way of moving.
I believe it is a mistake to interfere at this stage. He'll be on the forehand the first days, he'll be crooked, he will be a bit tense. Just give him the time to work it out. Do not try to shape him. Long and low work is about developing self carriage, not collection. It is not work on the bit and it is not about bringing his hindquarters well under.
You can, of course, shape him yourself from the very beginning. But then you'll need to guide him all the time, through every single step, keep him constantly between leg and hand. He'll rely totally on you for his balance, because he was never given half a chance to figure it out by himself. Even years later, whenever you remove the aids, the horse will be falling apart.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 10:48 am:
Christos, you really must find a way to get to California
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 11:38 am:
Charlotte,
I'm impressed that you have taken so much trouble to find a saddle that fits correctly. It is a step many people skip.
Is your mare shod in front? My short backed, long legged horse also had problems over reaching and had back problems. I was also told that he had a weak back and needed a lot of trotting with his head stretched down to correct this.
With my vet's advice, I bought a different saddle with a wider tree that didn't sit on his spine.
My vet also thought the way he was shod in front was causing problems - too much heel and not well balanced. My horse would "camp" under himself a lot when standing (hind feet positioned too far forward.) He also said the shoe was a size too small, not open enough over the heel, and was not back enough to support the heel.
After fixing these things over a few months with a different farrier my horse never had back problems again.
With the new way of shoeing my horse was much more comfortable, but it was hell trying to keep those shoes on. Even with bell boots he would reach up with a hind and pull the front off. After a year of this I let him go barefoot.
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 11:57 am:
Sorry, but I'm a little confused about exactly what is long and low? My western pleasure 4 year old Paint normally carries his head and neck level with his withers. His head is normally just forward of vertical. I ride him on a completely loose rein, primarily working off leg and seat. Recently, he has been DrOpping his head and neck to where his nose is almost to the ground and continues to travel like this at the walk and more so at the trot/jog. I am totally not in agreement with the "peanut roller" look.
My feeling is that this is his way of pulling through the bit. The last couple of days, he has begun to misbehave (shaking his head around, side stepping, refusing). After swapping out various tack, I've determined it's his way of saying "I don't wanna." It seems his misbehaviour begins with this nose to the ground way of traveling. It gets worse after that, so I've been wanting to stop his reaching down to the ground with his nose and have been applying more leg to get him through this.
Is this different from the long and low you are talking about?
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Member:
Charlott
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 12:40 pm:
I have been working with my farrier on her feet, but it seems that whenever he leaves the shoe back further she pulls it off right away. She has small feet so she does wear a small shoe. I read on this site somewhere about bell boots for this problem and I have done that, but she can still get them off. Thanks so much for the advice Christos I will read those articles tonight. Thanks everyone for the ideas.
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 12:56 pm:
your paint horse is just learning heavy on his forehand.. it sounds like he's getting himself "stuck"-where he cant/wont move forward, hence the misbehave... its unnatural for a horse to move with his head so far down-it puts them completely out of balance and pretty disconnected from his engine-the hind end...the spine locks up, and the spine is the key to the mind.. if the spine is locked, then the mind has to be too, hence the "stuck" behavior..
long and low is quite different, as we encourage the horse to stay loose and swinging in his back, to keep his hind legs swinging freely under him (and not dragging out behind which is what your horse is probably doing)...over time the horse will stretch his neck forward and down, the "arch" in his back will be the same as the "arch" in his neck (dont look for it, just feel it)... the stronger and more correctly supple the horse gets, the farther forward and down the horse can go-correctly...it can take months... the horse will continue to move forward freely and respond to anything you ask, but in a different "frame" (boy i hate that word, but you know what i mean i hope)...the connection from back to front will stay the same, as will the feeling.. if at anytime the horse gets stuck, then the connection has been lost and you must regroup...
as far as the shoe getting pulled off it really sounds like your horse is so heavy on the forehand that she cant get her front feet out of the way in time.. this can definately be caused by problems with shoeing (just moving the shoe back isnt enough if the foot isnt correctly balanced), or by physical problems in the back or hind end, as well as past training problems that have encouraged the horse to go so heavy...
if your horse is back sore you may find her reluctant to change the way she uses her back while you are riding her until the soreness is gone and the back strengthens correctly a little.. to try and ride her into long and low will only encourage her to get more onto her forehand and find ways to "Stick" her back to do what you want her to do, without actually doing it... sometimes light, loose work with side reins set real low will help the horse to get started, but it can be hard to get the hind end to move up without the horse just rushing off... i've had good success with the use of the "Pessoa" rig, which gets the horse to let go of his neck but gently encourages the horse to allow the hind end to swing forward and under.. its infinately adjustable-tho confusing at first- and i've used it on many horses that have had physical issues that needed to be strengthened up and taught to "let go" without thte stress of a rider...
good luck
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 1:08 pm:
Dove2 ,
The shaking of his head and other behaviour is definatly I dont wanna. When they go long and low they keep the same pace with energy and you have soft contact. They are nice and relaxed and happy and forward. Your'e horse doesnt sound very relaxed. Did you go to the links Christos posted. Maybe you should forget about that exersise for the time being and work on forward.
Lots of bending and turns and backing, and the best is transitions for bringing his legs up under him and making his back stronger. Transitions is what helped my horse the most. Trot five strides ,walk 5 canter 5 and so on mix it up. Its hard work so dont do it for too long or do more strides in between.You can tell the difference after a few weeks.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 1:09 pm:
Charlotte, This will also help your horses back get stronger
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Member:
Aannk
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 1:14 pm:
This is from my dressage trainer.
"You can't have self carriage without collection. Long and low IS work on the bit which requires contact, and it DOES involve bringing the hindquarter under. Otherwise the horse is just plodding along on the forehand, which is what happens so often. You DO need to help shape the horse and show it the way, or you will never develop the horse."
For what it's worth, which to me is a lot, as I really respect her.
When this topic first came out, I wanted to yell IT TAKES YEARS AND YEARS!!! There is no easy way to learn this and it is a process, not a few simple exercises. You can't tell someone how to do it in a few sentences or even paragraphs. It takes hands on experience and good teaching and lessons to understand.
Sorry to be a pain, but I learned the hard way there are no easy answers to anything related to riding correctly.
Alicia
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 1:31 pm:
Alicia,
I never taught my horse long and low it just became an automatic next step after years and years of work and conditioning so I guess I have to agree with you. If a horse is hollow in the back and not rounded no matter what you do they cant go long and low. Thats why I think people should really focus on other exersises until they have very strong supple horse and yes it takes years.
Katrina
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 1:40 pm:
Katrina,
I think my (lazy) horse is just rebelling and testing me by sticking his nose to the ground. When he does this, he continues to go along forward at the same pace, and uses his hind end well. He tracks up well. I was just trying to figure out whether his is a rebellious thing (in the last couple days it's started up once he thinks he's done enough work for the day/ i.e. wants to quit after 20-30 minutes) or whether he's somehow insecure/bothered about the lack of contact on the bit and thus "reaching" for the bit, or even if stretching out like that could indicate some discomfort in his back. We'll be going back to a few days of groundwork and 180 turns on the lunge line to develop his hindquarters and improve obedience, then pick up riding again after that.
Regarding my question, I guess the "long and low" you all are talking about is when the horse's neck and head are parallel to the ground and no higher than his withers. This is my horse's "normal" carriage. Of course, Paints and Quarter Horses' conformations make this more natural. For the higher headed horses, low might mean level (with the withers). Is that correct?
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 2:04 pm:
Charlotte,
Can you post a picture of your horse's front feet?
I have to second what Melissa B. says. You need to fix the sore back before you can expect a relaxed, flexible back.
If your back is "out" and sore, it doesn't matter how many ways you know how to bend over and touch your toes - you still don't want to do it because it hurts when you do.
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Member:
Aannk
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 2:16 pm:
Katrina,
I myself have never been able to do long and low without having a horse on the forehand. It is very hard for me to do it correctly. It is close to what we hunter folks are looking for in hack classes, but with a slightly higher neck and head carriage. I usually just let my horse go around on the forehand and that works OK, but the riders that do long and low correctly with a slightly higher carriage always win (of course the horse has to be a good mover too, but the not quite as good movers with a correct ride will win in a class with good movers from time to time too).
Alicia
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 2:49 pm:
you said it yourself alicia that long and low is the horse moving correctly thru its hindquarters.. if your horse is on its forehand then its not long and low.. its a "frame"... most hunter horses dont truly go long and low.. they get their horses to move forward using their hindquarters with some freedom in the back, and the horse is reached forward towards the bit... the "frame" should be similar to what a relaxed horse would be using in a hunter class over fences... too far down and your horse would have a hard time getting the fences correctly...
in the case that charlotte is looking for, basic long and low, which is quite similar to what you're doing with your hunter horse, should help her... you are absolutely correct in what your dressage trainer has said that it takes years to do it right... correct long and low is not actually taught, it comes about naturally when a correctly collected dressage horse is given the opportunity to take the rein... the horse should stretch forward and down, seeking the light contact at all times, but never rooting at the bit (which i believe katrina mentioned earlier)..
dove2, technically long and low doesnt have a whole lot to do with the heights of the horses head... the more correctly collected the horse and the stronger and more supple the horse, the more forward and down the horse can reach.. what we are implying is a way the horse carries itself.. a relaxed horse should carry his neck in a "neutral" position on his body, but that doesnt mean he's using his body to his ultimate potential and swinging his hind legs underneath and letting go in his back.. while their should be "arch" in the horse's neck when he is going long and low, it will dependent upon the current ability of the horse, not conformation....an upper level horse can freely swing thru long and low with his nose to the ground like a peanut roller, but it is nothing like what a peanut roller does...
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Member:
Aannk
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 3:08 pm:
Sorry, you are right. What I meant was I have never been able to do long and low, as I have never been able to allow my horse to stretch through her back and take the bit out of my hands without losing some impulsion and without losing my own balance. In the past, I didn't realize this was happening, and I happily went around believing I was doing it right. Now I know it is a lot harder than I thought and that all I was doing was changing the frame of my horse.
Oops, sorry for my mis-wording.
Alicia
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 3:23 pm:
Alicia, your trainer suggests that a horse will never figure out how to adjust his balance to compensate for the rider's weight on his forehand. If that was true, hanging 50kgr from one stirrup would cause the horse to walk eternally in circles, unable or unwilling to compensate for the discomfort. Or is the horse able to adjust his lateral balance but not the longitudinal one?
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 3:30 pm:
Dove, I do not mean to scare you, but what your horse does is a serious obstinacy, not the exercise we're talking about.
Do not let this become a habit, it frequently develops into bucking.
Drive him forward with all you've got when he does this. Remember, the horse's head comes up with your legs, not the hands !
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Member:
Aannk
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 3:40 pm:
I asked her, she may or may not get back to me today. I always say things wrong, I am not a natural rider, and it is very hard for me, which is why I do it. May sound contradictory, but I think it makes me a better person.
I think she may say that going on the forehand is easier so a horse will tend toward that but that going in a circle is not easy, so they wouldn't do that.
Alicia
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 3:50 pm:
Great thread, Charlotte! I think Christos nailed it on the relaxation first, especially since your horse is so sore. Post pics of the back feet too
I hope you don't mind a bit of hijacking...
Christos, what if Dove's 4 year old is just sore? Does he do the peanut roller on the lunge as well? Maybe she's been working him more lately?
I ask because Brave is doing this on the lunge, but I've been told that when he does the peanut roller thing his hind end hurts somewhere...once he warms up, he has a normal carriage again...anything to this?
If he's not sore, would carrying a stick be of assistance?
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 3:58 pm:
Yes, Aileen, it can be from discomfort or weakness. Young horses do this often when they get tired.
No, I do not think a stick is a good idea. This is a serious objection from the part of the horse, and applying the stick is very likely to cause a serious fight.
If you are not afraid or for other reasons reluctant to pick a fight, yes, a stick is very appropriate and usually fixes such attitude very quickly.
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 4:43 pm:
Thanks, Aileen, for pointing up some possibilities. Yes, I am just getting back into riding (my 4 y.o. has had two serious injuries and not been worked much in the past 3 months, although he was worked daily all last winter and spring). My horse was great for the first two days this week, we took one day off due to rain, then he started acting up these past two days (including today). He is fine for about the first 15 to 20 minutes. Our exercises are quite simple: walking then jogging, mostly 20 mm circles and figure 8's. I have been riding him for maybe 20 to 30 minutes at a time. He does not poke his nose down on the lunge line but I only lunged him once on a lunge line, and once on a 14' rope halter (circling) this past week (he was excellent), so there really haven't been opportunities to see. I plan to go back and circle him for a few days.
Christos, I'm relieved to hear that "young horses do this [peanut roller] often when they get tired." Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread, but seems the real issue here may be how to build up a weak back, in Charlotte's original question. I'll try Katrina's suggestions with lots of transitions once I start riding again. Meanwhile I plan to circle my horse and have him do lots of direction changes on the line (engaging his hindquarters), but only for about 5 to 10 minutes initially. BTW, when I palpate his back, there is no indication of a sore back, but I do know there are two large dry spots on either side of his withers, which I'm trying to solve also.
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Member:
Charlott
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 5:50 pm:
I will get out tomorrow and take some pics of her feet, and try to get them posted. Pretty interesting discussions. Thanks all.
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Member:
Charlott
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 9:18 pm:
 Here's her front feet.
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Member:
Charlott
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 9:20 pm:
 Here are the back feet.
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Member:
Charlott
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 9:22 pm:
 Here is a straight on. Hope these are ok, this was no easy job.
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Member:
Charlott
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 9:24 pm:
She is due for new shoes next week. She is a little over 5 weeks here.
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Member:
Sureed
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 9:29 pm:
OK, I know nothing about long and low. However, my TB pulled off his front shoes routinely. He was ultimately shod square in back and I ride him with XL Davis boots in front that hang down low for extra protection.
And yes, I agree, Christos needs to come to California and give us all a clinic. I bet we could put our heads together and figure out a way to make this happen.
Suzanne
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 10:19 pm:
Melissa describes it well. Alicia dont worry I find it hard to put into words what I am trying to describe A horse naturaly goes on the forehand with out a rider so until they learn an easier way that is the easiest for them because thats what they know. My horse is an arab when he runs free his nose is straight up in the air snorting and flairing. That would be impossible for me to ride.I am not good at explaining how to do things I just know what works for me.Alicia I really believe in lots of different exersise's. circling does make it harder for them to go on the forehand. So that might be a very good place to start. When I did a lot of lunging to help build the correct muscles I would do 2 steps trot 2 or 3 canter then back to trot for 2 strides (He was already fit enough for this) and back and forth. after a while you could see him lift up in the front and bring those hind legs under him in anticipation of the change in transitions it was amazing to watch such power then I would do the same exersises under saddle. to feel the changes from a regular trot and canter to this absolute comfort like you cant describe. I also do a few times a week lot of mountain riding up and down steep hills. My horse really gets a good workout. Sometimes I feel its too much but he actually does not wantto come home till he is tired. I am getting side tracked again. Yes in long and low the horses poll must be soft but thats another lesson .Dove 2 each horses conformation is different so head level is not important its the feeling of stretching while staying soft in your hands. I really cant describe it I which I could. I just know the feeling. Your horse is definatly telling you something. I would guess its just leave me alone I dont want to work. But maybe he is trying to reach for the bit. You said it might be that. Try keeping the contact and as Christos describes let him chew it out of your hands but stay up right like something is pulling your head and body towards the sky. With me I never tried to do or teach this to my horse. I wish I really could say what to do.
I stopped doing dressage about a year or so ago because of so many different oppinions and ways it got confusing and I stopped enjoying my horse. Though I do recomend listening to everyones advise, the more you hear the more you can take and use or leave behind. Thats how you learn. I started doing natural horseman ship and have never looked back its soo easy for the horse and rider to understand . I still love dressage and the exersise's in western or natural horsemanship are the same just different names. I incorporate them to what fits my way of thinking. They are straight forward and easy.
I know I bumbled this post. I hope I didnt make it more confusing. Everyone on this site had great advise I recomend listening to all of it. I have learned alot. You can never learn or know enough in regards to horses, you always keep learning.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 10:30 pm:
One more thought maybe teaching them to be very soft on the bit (giving) would be a good way to start. Then maybe they are already, just a thought.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 10:42 pm:
And yet again another thought. It took me 5 hard years of training maybe not for me for my horse to be as he is and he is a long way off for how I want him but I have the rest of my life (I hope its a long one)to have him be the best he can be. I am not in a rush and have never been. If it takes me a year to teach one thing so be it. Its the fun and pleasure and joy that I share with him thats the most important. Sorry had to put that in.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 11:59 pm:
Thats only close to five weeks growth..??
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 12:49 am:
Long and low is what strengthens the back.
The body language of the horse is important to interpret what the horse is thinking.
I agree with Katarinas post that after correct riding the horse wants to stretch, this is a good thing.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 4:13 am:
Horses will naturally be on the forehand, some times. Not always, not most of the time. Just some times. We let them develop their balance naturally, then of course correct those few times that they fall on the forehand.
These are two TBs right off the track, trained to be used in lessons for beginners.
Does anybody suggest these horses need somebody to tell them how to balance ?
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 4:59 am:
Charlotte, these look like healthy, strong hooves.
However, they do look too long, even for 5 weeks from last trimming.
You may want to print the articles under: Care of the horse >> Hoof Care, study them a bit and discuss them with your farrier.
Correcting these hooves a bit will improve his way of moving and minimise the problem of pulled shoes.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 6:30 am:
For the first few years I let him carry himself how he wanted. I just wanted him to enjoy being ridden and learn basic commands.I did not even use a bit. There is a picture in my profile of him green on his first hunter pace. 3-4 years ago. He has his head in his natural position. He now carries it differently, but he still was balanced and having fun. I never put him on the bit at this stage and used to get a lot of flack over it, but I did what I thought was right for him. Like I said I did things very slowly in my posts it might sound like I went faster but that was because I was trying to cram the words in
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 9:44 am:
I was not going to get involved with this thread, but i have to disagree with the idea that a horse will engage his back and use his hind end more often then on the forehand.. A horse in pasture will plod along on the forehand all day long, yes, there will be some explosive moments out there that they will rock back and push off from the hind end.. and there will be some momemts of time when they are engaged in what i call the barn yard trot, tail lifted, head lifted and show us a loafty canter or trot.. But for the horse to on a daily / hourly turnout will not be so engaged.. Its work.. and we all know that the animal is basically lazy.. I have seen horse round ups.. I don't recall seeing any pushing off from behind , but a lot of just foreward on the forehand moving.. specially short distance round ups.. Yes, it is better for them to be off the forehand for long term soundness while we ride 'em and ask them to do their paces while on top.. Stretching is a great reward and it just feels so good..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 9:48 am:
Charlotte, I agree with Ann and Christos, the toe look too long... What I do, if you have the money I suggest you do it too, is have a farrier series of xrays done on the hooves. It gives the farrier a baseline to work from and it takes out the guessing game.
Here is my boy a year ago,
Here he is a couple of weeks ago, and Dr. O is asking to have the farrier rocker it.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 10:34 am:
No, Ann, most horses don't naturally trot or canter mainly on the forehand. The few that do, benefit greatly from some gymnastics before being worked on the bit. If one still chooses to put an unbalanced horse on the bit, it suits me fine, it's not my horse and it's not me struggling with it.
A horse does not need to be between hand and leg to be balanced. Dressage horses are not the only balanced horses on the planet, you know. Just open your eyes, look a bit around and you'll see plenty of magnificent horses in perfect self carriage with or without a rider on their back.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 10:38 am:
I would see if I could get someone to hold your horse (so she doesn't step on your head while you take these pictures ), try to get as close to the ground as possible and include the cannon bone with the hooves, also get a general conformation pic. Then post your pics under the care of the hooves and ask Dr. O for his opinion
It just may be that you fix her feet and her back stops hurting. It's taken me two years working with vets and farriers to begin to correct my horses feet, and while he is finally sound, he is still ouchy.
I still think relaxation is the key for your mare right now, then you can get technical
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 10:39 am:
And no, we don't all know that horses are basically lazy. I barely need my legs when riding.
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 10:45 am:
I'm just catching up on this thread and haven't seen where anyone's mentioned the horse's conformation in the entire "low and low" equation. I know that like others, when I made the switch from Western Pleasure to Dressage, my quarter horse had a hard time not only because of his previous training, but because of his conformation. I was lucky that while he was not "downhill", he was at best level but it took riding each and every stride to keep him off his forehand.
Incidentally, regarding "peanut rollers"; I've been at AQHA shows where many horses were disqualified for being too low. As so often happens, people see horses winning with low headsets and think that's all there is to it. They don't bother to look at the rest of the horse; which may in fact be going "long and low" and not at all on the forehand.
Fast forward to buying my first warmblood, a schoolmaster with a fantastic training background. He's built so uphill that finding a saddle to fit took over 6 months and it still isn't perfect. This is after wasting 4 months with a custom saddler. Anyway, it is EASY for him to go long and low, each time he stretches, I ask for a longer step, he responds by stretching further and taking an even bigger stride. Granted, he didn't learn this overnight, but my point is that conformation of the individual, which contributes to their natural ability to balance, cannot be ignored.
As Lynn Palm says; dressage is good for all horses; not all horses are good for dressage.
Chris
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 10:49 am:
Suzanne, we do need to put our heads together and figure this out. Maybe we can figure out what it depends on for Christos to come here and help him out somehow...extra income just may be an incentive
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 10:56 am:
Some of these discussions get over my head but here's something I was told many years ago.
The best thing for a horse is NOT circles, (for what we are discussing here) but LOTS of trotting as in down the road. With a green horse, do as much trotting as it takes until he shows signs of wanting to slow down. At that point, give a little squeeze with your legs and he should noticeably reach for the bit and bring his legs, and back up. Let him settle into that a few strides is all at first,then allow some walking, and repeat. You are riding on a relaxed rein and the horse is just taking the slack out of the rein when you use your legs.
At first, you are just doing a rough trot usually, and it's work! The first times I did this, I didn't know how to post so I just stood in the stirrups....many years ago. Each step the horse took about jarred my bones out of my body. But it is something to build on and it does work.
I was told this by an older guy who rode his horses ( and still rides) better than any "dressage" rider I have seen. His horses have beautiful carriage, and muscle tone, all on a loose rein.
Of course there most likely are many ways to get the same results, but it seems so many of us (me included) just ride circles, or in an arena which turns into a big oval. I think if you are working on long and low, a few miles down a nice trail are a nice way to do it.
Something else, way out in left field here, is you can take some of the stretchy wraps and tie that around the horses back legs and across the chest. It will look like a figure 8 when you are done, the knot on top of the back. Used on the lunge line, it encourages the horse to bring their hind legs under them.
I think that is what the Pessoa rig is doing, correct?
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 1:48 pm:
I don't recall saying anything about Dressage in this thread.. ? And I will quite agree there are some lovely balanced horses without a rider running free..... All tho most of the weight of the horse is in front so physically they will be on the forehand most of the time.. .. And I too would hope that when I mounted up that my horse is not lazy.. In the pasture or running free they are.. they would much rather graze and lolly gag around then be working .. I knew I should have not gotten involved in this thread..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 2:42 pm:
This is too common a mistake, Ann. Even very credible books say it wrong.
A horse that moves by carrying 60% of his weight on the forehand is balanced, in self carriage. Just stop and think about it for a moment.
It is the horse that carries more than that on the front legs that is on the forehand.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 3:03 pm:
You know, the more Christos and Ann debate, the more we learn Ann is right, and so is Christos, and so is everyone else according to their experiences. Each horse does has a different way of moving due to their conformation. My horse is definitely on the forehand most of the time, unless he is excited then he is 90% using his hind end. Christos has the distinct pleasure of riding "light and balanced" horses as evidenced in his pictures. I really do wish he could come here so he could see our horses go
We all have such a passion for these wonderful creatures or we wouldn't be members here...gotta love this site
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 3:28 pm:
We are not on opposite sides with Ann, so a debate can not take place, Aileen.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 5:14 pm:
And by the way, I do not always ride light and balanced horses.
The new horse I bought this winter is a bit of a tragedy if you DrOp the contact. Running free, let's just not talk about 
He is magnificent on the bit, very light and cooperative and enthusiastic in his work. A bit crooked and headstrong at times, but that's a different story. Now I do not want to have to hold that bit all the time, so he'll have to learn some basic balance. We'll go back to square one this winter.
You know, self carriage frees one set of cues, as my trainer used to put it. So besides being less work, which is what I like the most about it, it is also the ticket to one level higher.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 6:30 pm:
Sorry, conversations
Yes, self carriage is my goal, and working through at the same time. My horse is hesitant to use his back, understandably, hopefully we'll get there sooner rather than later. I think Charlotte's issues and mine are similar.
The mare is actually easy to ride FDO, takes just a few minutes to warm up her back and off she goes, did it today in fact I guess it does depend on the suppleness, training, and relaxation.
Thanks again for a great thread!
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 7:45 pm:
I have one last comment or should I say suggestion. I know its been said before or recommended is the clinton anderson riding with confidence tapes. I have studied all these guys and this is by far the best. After doing the exersises you wont be asking how to do long and low or stuff like that. You will have a series of exersises that will make your horse better than you have ever dreamed. You will have a horse that you can ride on the buckle or as soft as is possible, collected or loose and relaxed on the bit or off. they will stop on a dime with just woah or they will stop collected . They will move their hips or shoulders over so fast with the slightest of touch. No dressage trainer or instructer has ever given me so much knowledge. I can gallop across a feild and just sit or say woah and he will slow down and stop. I know you guys are probably saying no way. I have just finished the second series. The third and last of the series are for teaching sliding stops and more collection, spins, rollbacks etc. It can be used in dressage by this stage as by now your horse will be so soft he has his poll softened just by knowing you will pick up the reins. It can be used for reining which is my next goal. western or what ever you choose it is just pure horsemanship. For the first time in my life I dont have questions on how to do things or am I doing it right or wrong or why doesnt my horse listen Or why is he to heavy or etc etc. Whatever your disipline. I do have to say for the first 2 tapes or at least the first dressage people may disagree with the methods but thats only because its different from what they know. By the third I guarantee they will want the tapes.
I sound like an advertisment. Sorry but riding my whole life I have never had a better teacher than these tapes. and if you buy them after using them you can resell them for almost the same money on e-bay.
Katrina
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 9:03 pm:
Dove2 Just a question has this nose to the ground thing started when you started to teach long and low?
Katrina
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 9:18 pm:
Dove2 the reason I asked this is when I first got my horse he was super scared of everything dangerously so. I read an article in a john lyons magazine about teaching your horse to DrOp his head (to the ground) it was supossed to relax them. It did work. The aids are very similar to trying to teach long and low as for what I have heard from these disscusions. Maybe just maybe your horse is a bit confused and is trying to please you but gets frustrated when he finds out he is wrong because he doesnt get rewarded and is not sure what you want. I think he might be confused. Do you think that could be it.
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Member:
Juliem
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 12:40 am:
I find it astonishing that an animal that depends on movement for its very survival has managed to thrive on this Earth for millions of years and and still hasn't developed the ability to move properly in the correct balance without human intervention. Amazing.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 5:51 am:
Yes, Julie, it is truly amazing.
And sad, some times. It is very interesting to observe what becomes of some of the magnificent horses we see in 3yo inspections after just a few years of human "balancing" guidance.
However, with all our blaming on human standards and methods, we must not forget that the only horse populations who survived were the ones saved by people. The horse as a species wouldn't have made it to our days if it was not protected and managed by humans. For food and work, I agree, but still, it saved the species.
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 7:23 am:
Katrina,
Thanks for your thoughts. I was not trying to teach him long and low. His normal way of going is in a nice, relaxed western pleasure frame, where his head and neck are pretty much level with his withers. To do a slow sustained western jog is quite demanding on the horse. I'm pretty sure that the reason he's putting his nose to the ground is to tell me he is tired and wants to stop, (and hoping that it wasn't that the new saddle/bit/change of pads were hurting him). I sense it was a need to "escape" and thus he was rooting to get away from the work.
I thought I would join this thread with a different angle on long and low so as to differentiate this type of behavior from the beneficial stretch many dressage riders are looking for. A dressage riding instructor I used a few times saw him root to the ground and was as pleased as punch, saying "wow, look how relaxed he is." But it confused me because I was getting a completely different feeling as to why he had his nose to the ground.
Meanwhile, instead of riding yesterday, I circled him with lots of change of directions, with the intent to build up his muscles and stamina after having had three months off from riding. Today we'll go for a trail ride and a tiny bit of hill work. Sometimes I get so fixated on achieving certain skills that I forget to change up the program and keep him interested. My horse is very communicative about what he likes and doesn't like. 
I did find a very interesting passage in Reiner Klimke's book, "Basic Training of the Young Horse." "After achieving 'losgelassenheit [which means a horse which freely gives all its muscles to use its whole body without any resistance; the horse is supple and unconstrained] then the real work starts. Many riders spend too long with their horses long and low trying to make them perfectly "losgelassenheit." They have the wrong idea of "losgelassenheit" for the horse ends up going on its forehand and loses the natural brilliance of its gaits. Thus there is a danger in concentrating too much on "losgelassenheit."
"Working the horse long and low brings out the stiffness but when it becomes a little lazy then we should get it into a balance which is not on its fore hand. We need to make the back supple, and riding long and low is an easy way to do this, but we must remember that when long and low the horse is out of balance, if we take balance to mean that the weight is equally distributed on all four legs. The horse will have more weight on its fore hand and in training we work to gradually change the balance, to make its hind quarters stronger so that it can carry more weight with them and give the shoulders the freedom to extend and to show brilliance in the gaits."
Klimke then goes on to explain the importance of rhythm ("takt") so that the horse "learns to carry and balance the rider's weight so that it can move freely and without strain. When this is achieved one says the horse moves in a natural balance, and with a constant, correct rhythm/takt."
This has been a very interested thread and I've learned a lot. Thanks, everyone!
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 8:15 am:
Dove2 instincts are usually right. You knew the answer all along. enjoy your trail ride. Your right the more different things you do with your horse the more fun you both have together. I am off on a long trail ride also today. Have fun
Katrina
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 8:17 am:
Thanks for pointing these out, Dove.
Dr Klimke is, of course, right in his instruction. We are looking for quality, not quantity. Once the horse has developed self carriage and figured out how to carry his rider, going on and on will only get him bored, uninterested and sloppy.
Once he is ready, he must meet with a gentle contact down there and proceed with the rest of his training.
Again, the description of weight carried vs balance is incorrect. No, we don't take balance to mean that weight is equally distributed on all four legs. That is collection, a form of balance if you want, but not natural balance or self carriage.
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 10:31 am:
Sorry, Christos, I skipped quite a bit of text and explanation to get to the balance statement. Klimke states that 'In the field the horse has a natural balance but when the rider adds his weight the greater burden falls on the front legs which puts excessive strain on them. The old maxim of a balanced load (i.e. equal distribution on the four legs) being easier to carry than an unbalanced one makes it imperative to bring the horse into a balance where the weight is more evenly distributed."
If you say Klimke's description of weight carried vs balance is incorrect, please share your definition of natural balance, self carriage and how you consider a horse balanced with rider?
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 10:56 am:
Katrina,
Thanks for your vote of confidence, but no, I really didn't know the answer all along, because I needed to hear different persons' experiences, confirmations, and suggestions in order to come to a conclusion. I always try to keep an open mind. Have a great time on your trail ride, and thanks again for your concern and help with my issues.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 11:56 am:
This is an academic argument, Dove, I am afraid I'm boring everybody to death with something that is of no practical value, since we can't measure the weight our trotting horse is carrying on each leg anyway. However, the explanation is very simple.
On the horse standing nice and square, 60 percent of his weight is carried on the front legs. That is not on the forehand, it is balanced. Self carriage. It is the same on the moving horse. 60% of the weight carried by the front legs is balanced, because that's where 60% of the weight is anyway.
The rider's weight changes this. So we need to give the horse some time to adapt to the new situation, and he will adjust it to the same balance, ie 60% of the total weight carried in front. That is self carriage under the rider and once achieved you do not have to hold the reins to prevent the horse from falling on the forehand.
The horse carrying his weight equally on all legs is medium collection, not self carriage.
I e-mailed Dr Klimke about this today, I will post his reply when I receive it.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 12:48 pm:
Sad statement, the last one, I meant I e-mailed Dr Thomas Ritter.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 2:29 pm:
This is all very interesting. Cant wait for Dr Ritters reply
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 3:08 pm:
I've been reading Dressage Formula by Erik Hebermann, he states in "the signs of Correct Work"
The horse is in front of the rider's seat and leg; (3-footnote) the forehand becomes large and light because the shoulder is freed owing to a greater 'carrying' of the supple engaged and deeply bent hindquarters"
(3) The old standard: 'Two thirds of the horse in front of the rider, one-third behind'"
Is this what your meaning Christos?
In the same book he writes about FDO, he said there are three foundation stones on which the exercise is built:
1) Even rhythm, and the resulting balance, relaxation, and freedom from constraint, so that the horse is in an accepting 'driveable' state.
2) The first stage of bending that, in answer to the driving aid, the horse stretches the outside of its body when the outside rein is yielded forward, while the inside rein sustains passively, waiting for the horse to soften to the bend. Once the horse has given to the bend, the rider must then make the 'giving' attitude in both reins absolutely even, while encouraging the horse to reach evenly into them with the driving aids.
3) Accurate riding of school figures (type, size and location) is essential to success."
And points to remember:
"keep an even, correct rhythm (relaxed, calm, accepting horse).
Carefully drive the horse into lengthening its body and stretching its neck to the ground. The forward urge is the main ingredient of success.
The horse must have yielded to the bend by stretching the outside of its body and neck. It should not be against the inside rein, nor try to straighten its neck, nor should it begin to lean in against the inside leg when it is allowed to stretch. It should also not overbend its neck to the inside and end up falling out at the outside shoulder. It must be balanced and go independently through the channel formed by the rider's legs and reins."
I love this book
I hope I pulled the correct quotes to help and this isn't taken out of context because I don't know enough to correct it!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 3:48 pm:
I can not comment on every book written, Aileen, let's just not do that.
But since you asked, no, this is not what I mean. At all. This text is referred to collected work. We are talking basic balance here, long and low work in self carriage.
What I mean, if you want a picture, is the good horse that trots in in-hand shows. This is self carriage, this is the movement one must achieve when first starting a horse under saddle. This is the foundation of all Dressage.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 3:59 pm:
And I fully understand that contradicting Masters of the art and texts that have been followed religiously for centuries sounds stupid and arrogant, not to say downright crazy, but don't be in a hurry to judge this yet.
There are big pleasant surprises down the road, let's just take things one at a time.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 7:51 pm:
LOL...don't take this the wrong way Christo, but I think I just heard a collective sigh of relief .. To think that you aren't crazy after all 
I'll be patient, because my boy just this morning started showing even tempo and relaxation on the lunge, I haven't seen that in a long time. I call him Mr. Wiggly Giggly under saddle...it's going to be hard to get FDO right with him, but at least I know what it feels like when I ride the mare
Sorry Charlotte, hopefully you don't feel like we've hijacked your great thread!
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Member:
Charlott
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 10:00 pm:
No, not at all, it has been very interesting.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 6:46 am:
Hello all, this is Dr Ritter's reply (my question in Italics):
Why do we perceive balance to start when the horse carries his weight equally distributed on all legs ? Since the horse's weight is naturally distributed 60% in front, isn't the horse that carries 60% on the front legs in absolute neutral balance? Isn't this self carriage ?
I have the feeling that it is the horse that carries more than 60% on the forehand, using his hinquarters very little, that is on the forehand.
Shouldn't we define equal weight distribution as medium collection instead of self carriage ?
Self carriage is achieved, when the horse is on the bit and no longer leaning onto the rider's hand, i.e. when the haunches have yielded to the rider's weight, and the jaw and poll have relaxed and yielded to the rein pressure. To the rider this feels as if all 4 legs were carrying the same amount of weight. There aren't any scientific studies (apart from Baucher's experiments at the halt), as far as I know, that measure the precise weight distribution of horses in self carriage and on the forehand. It 's quite possible that a horse who feels like all 4 legs are carrying the same amount of weight is objectively still supporting a greater share of the load with his front legs.
The terminological conventions of the equestrian tradition are based on the rider's impressions in the saddle, which are somewhat subjective, rather than on objective scientific measurements.
Best Wishes,
Thomas Ritter
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 9:38 am:
Christos, Thank you for posting Dr. Ritters reply.
He seems to make sense.
Maybe what riders need is a common book of definitions. But therein lies the controversy I suppose.
I haven't considered some of these ideas in depth before so I am doing some of my own digging, and learning.
Looking forward to others opinions.
By the way, do you agree with his definition of balance and self carriage?
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 9:45 am:
Thanks, Christos, for getting us Dr. Ritter's excellent definition. I think Klimke's assessment is sufficient to say that the main thing is that the horse is using his hind end enough to free up the front end for ease of movement and "brilliance" of movement. I don't think it matters whether there is 60% or 55% or even 50% distribution of weight on the forehand. It probably differs from horse to horse anyway based on their conformation.
You know, it's interesting: there's a whole lot of equine terminology that we all use but it sometimes means different things to different folks, especially when you try to explain it in lay terms. I think from now on, I'm going to try to only use lay terms.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 10:44 am:
Thank you Christos I do hope I didn't offend you, I truly was kidding...
You are a wise man
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 3:37 pm:
It didn't hurt so much, Aileen, I think I'll get better in a day or two  .
Lori, it is extremely difficult to explain this, I've been unsuccessfully trying to put it into words these days.
Yes, I agree with the feeling described in these definitions, I was taught the same way etc, but they are imperfect, they cause serious misunderstandings and unnecessary confusion and, some times, they don't hold water at all.
We may not have scientific measurements, but we do have clues of what's really happening. All horses, for instance, will wear off the front shoes faster than the hind ones. I have failed to observe a single horse, however balanced, wear off all shoes at the same time.
Also, assuming that the horse is carrying more weight on the hind legs because he puts them under his body is oversimplification of a horse's movement. I do not believe he carries more weight on the hinds in collection. Except, of course, in very high degrees, right before leaps and such.
His putting his hind legs under is to brake his weight from moving forward, somehow like a sliding stop, not to carry more weight on them. The weight balance does not change. Both shoulders and hips push more to jump higher in collection.
The feeling of growing uphill is from the hind legs stepping under when landing, to brake the mass from moving forward. This lowers the croup and gives you the impression that the horse is sitting his weight on his hind legs, but he is not. The weight he carries is the same percentage.
You can see this very easily in a horse with front leg problems. It will sit on the hind legs to remove weight from the fronts, but on a standstill only. He can not even walk in this fashion. Horses do not walk well on two legs, you know. If they could, a bout of mild laminitis would be blessing in a dressage horse, not such a curse !
(look at that, I think I managed to explain it somehow after all !)
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 4:23 pm:
lol, thanks so much Christos
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 1:06 am:
Thank you again Christos, you did make sense.
Lori
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 3:48 am:
Important note:
In my last post I am referring to modern sporthorses.
I still have the doubt that old type, baroque horses with massive hindquarters and very strong abdominals and loins could, possibly, lift their weight off the forehand with the hind legs and actually move in this fashion. In this case, the old Masters would be absolutely true in their definitions.
I will know a lot more on this subject by the time we meet, in one and a half years.
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 9:33 am:
Aileen, I have been going over this thread, there is so much good info in here, in one of your posts you use the term FDO, what do you mean?
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 10:31 am:
Hi Lori, sorry about that! FDO=Forward/Down/Out= horse is going forward, head is down, nose in front of the verticle.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Monday, Jul 17, 2006 - 10:01 pm:
So I have printed out and have been pouring over all threads related to this so forgive me if I am repeating something that has been mentioned. I guess I just need to trouble-shoot. I have been bringing my young tb along and he is still a good boy. I think we are doing well because he is stretching, but he is getting soooooo heavy on the bit and starting to even rush a bit. At the risk of being too optimistic, I am happy that he is stretching. But I know that the reason he is leaning on me is because of me and I need to "fix" it before my arms fall off. Thanks for any help!
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Member:
Canderso
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2006 - 7:20 am:
Hi Gwen,
Your horse is rushing because he is falling on his fore hand - it is a balance thing. You can help him balance himself more by asking for the long and low a little more slowly and with a little more control.
I was taught to develop long and low by keeping the forward activity and then releasing the outside rein inch by inch ... and following with the inside rein as the horse stretched down and out. Start out on a circle - it is just easier for all. Use your leg to remind the horse to stay off your hands.
Remember the horse's nose does not curl in or under - it should be slightly in front of the vertical once you achieve the stretch. If your horse starts to curl either you need to ride the horses' nose out...(lots of leg with VERY gentle hands) or you can go back to a regular trot, and start again.
Don't expect to learn the movement right away; you need to work your way down inch by inch, over time - and it can take time.
One of my horses has had a terrible time understanding he can actually stretch out at a trot while under saddle. It has taken almost a year to teach him to reliably stretch down and out... The other horse would curl, or would toss his head as he stretched down. He stopped when he realized the real stretch felt better. (Buckskins ... Sheesh!)
Take your time, it is worth it.
Cheers,
Cheryl
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2006 - 9:04 am:
Gwen, the horse will fall on his forehand the first few times you attempt the exercise.
But this is not comfortable for him, and he will try to figure out how to improve his balance.
If nobody supports his head, he'll have to modify his posture and stepping to adjust his balance back to normal.
If you do support his head, you provide too much help for him to make an effort. He'll rely on it to balance, and may even ask for more help by giving you more weight to hold. Until it is too much for you and you resort to a stronger bit or otherwise punishing him in the mouth, which will make him afraid of the contact and behind the vertical.
Do not support the horse in the mouth. Never hold weight in the reins, except perhaps when momentarily resisting a pull or when he takes a bad stumble. Take a good, definite contact, but never enough to be described as carrying some weight.
He is consciously giving you that weight to hold, in an attempt to figure out his balance. He'll try the easy way first, which is "do you mind holding this head for a minute?" Now if you really don't mind, go ahead and hold it. But if you do mind, simply, don't hold it !
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2006 - 3:57 pm:
So how do I tell him that " I mind"? I have tried DrOpping him and he goes down further. I don't want to bump him in the mouth because of the reasons you stated Christos. I have a feeling that my upper body is not stable enough...
In terms of "lesson plans", does anyone have any resources that provide these? As a teacher, that is how I feel most comfortable when learning or teaching, and I have yet to find a book that actually gives clear direction on what each ride should look like on a day-to-day basis when bringing a greenie along.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2006 - 5:23 pm:
Just let him stretch as much and as long as he wants, Gwen. He won't stay like this for ever.
Work on a very light contact when he is fully stretched, teaching him that he has to respond to very light, very short applications of the rein. Do not hold weight.
To engage his hindquarters more, apply leg. Shortly, but definitely.
He'll think he has to speed up. Apply the reins with a short, light, repeated action to control his speed. Not too fast, in a rattling way, just short, light pulses.
As he doesn't know what this is yet, he may object by pulling or shaking his head. Just ignore it. If he's fully stretched, he can't pull but a few inches and pretty much downwards, so you can resist that easily if you want, so he knocks it off faster.
When you feel him slowing down a tiny bit as a response to your rein "pulses", be quiet for a few seconds so that he understands that this is what you wanted, then ask him to slow down some more, if you want, by means of a few more "pulses" in the reins.
As he gets the hang of these short pulses meaning speed regulation, your leg followed by a short pulse in the rein to prevent increase in speed will cause his hind end to engage and his balance to improve.
Remember, leg first. You can only control with the reins what your leg produces.
We halt a horse by balancing him into a halt, by engaging his hind end more and more without an increase in speed until he halts (or makes the downward transition we want), not by pulling on the reins or holding them tight.
Pulling on the reins is very severe punishment and confuses and frightens the horse a lot, especially if you shout at him at the same time. Holding weight in the reins is doing his job instead of helping him figure it out and perform it himself.
PS: I have seen many people driving their horse crazy with too frequent application of half halts. With a very highly trained, extremely sensitive and athletic horse you may apply as many as two half halts per step, but don't do that at home.
Our horses can't adjust their balance so fast, so the constant moving of the bit will just irritate them and finally teach them to ignore it.
Don't be too busy with your hands in the beginning.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Friday, Jul 21, 2006 - 7:17 am:
Thanks so much for your time and advice!
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New Member:
Ejaco
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Posted on Monday, Jul 24, 2006 - 11:23 pm:
The term FDO - forward, down, out, used by Aileen is interesting. I read - I'm sure it was in Klimke's book on cavaletti - that the main aim of long and low is to stretch the back muscles. It is an exercise where the horse should be on the bit, which means that the angle of the head to the neck should remain the same as it does when the horse is working in the normal 'frame'. Since in long and low the neck is stretched downwards, the head should actually be 'behind the vertical' (ie less than 90% angle of face to ground) in order to keep the same angle of the head to the neck. This seems to make sense to me, as if the nose is poked out this would allow the horse to keep a hollow back and therefore would not be stretching the neck muscles.
I also read that it can be taught fairly quickly and there are various ways in which you can teach a horse to lower his head. One of them is to vibrate the reins at the halt and reward any indication of head lowering. Once the horse understands what you are asking, you can start doing it at the walk and then the trot. The same aids are used to keep the horse on the bit as at any other time.
All this is theory only to me however, I do natural horsemanship and haven't yet progressed to contact.
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Member:
Canderso
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 7:41 am:
Hi Elizabeth,
Sorry but what you have written is really really incorrect.
Simply vibrating the reins (without forward activity) results in a false frame. The front kind of DrOps, with absolutely no power from behind. The horse invariably falls on its forehand and, as you describe, behind the bit (which is an evasion).
Just so you know where I am coming from, as I write this post... I scribe at many many dressage shows, from schooling level up to international level competition. I scribe every year for 'O' level judges (the best in the world), who very very kindly explain what the movements are, as well as what they aren't.
My experience has been that the higher level the judge, the more passionate they are about movements like the long and low ... because these are the movements that reveal the correctness of the training.
A correctly executed long and low (or stretchy circle at the higher levels) is unforgettable... and is not at all what you have described.
What I have heard consistently: Long and low is about stretching the horse's entire spinal column, which includes the neck, including the poll, all the way to the tail. The nose must be slightly in front of the vertical or the rider has not stretched the neck correctly.
How fast this can be taught depends on the horse and the rider. It is a balancing and stretching activity that requires tact and timing from the rider and trust from the horse. A talented rider with a horse that likes to stretch - no problem. Regular schmoe rider like me with horse that doesn't believe he can stretch under saddle... it takes time.
Elizabeth, I am really really sorry to be so blunt in correcting what you have written, but this is a very common misconception that stems from/leads to really incorrect training.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 7:54 am:
I read somewhere that when properly in the long and low the neck and head should look like a swan .
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 8:57 am:
I read an article in John Lyons' magazine about cueing a horse to lower his head and stretch down by simply sending him a gentle cue of head flexion. From what I understood, it was asking a horse to flex in one direction with a kind hand cue and when the horse DrOps its head, release. He said to begin at the halt and as the horse improves, move up in the paces. I understand that the whole forward thing wasn't addressed (I say that because I know it will be mentioned).
As I read these posts and various articles on the subject, I wonder if there is a bit more room for "acceptable" than many say. Rather than one correct way and a million incorrect, is there really better ways, and then not-as-great- but still okay and beneficial in some ways. Just wondering...
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 1:18 pm:
CherylA
what an excellent explanation of long and low... having ridden and trained correct classical dressage for many years, i found your explanation to be about right on...
we were always extremely passionate on correct long and low for every single horse we started and were working with, no matter how advanced...
i think as far as correct long and low goes, there really isnt a whole lot of leeway, because its a full body movement...
i dont think its a bad thing to teach the horse to flex or lower the head, but it is not long and low...
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 6:16 pm:
I've been reading this off and on, and some of it gets over my head. But what I wanted to comment on:
Just watched Clinton Anderson and he had his reining trainer showing how he works with Clinton's horses for him. 2 & 3 year olds.
Supposively these horses have natural low head carriage, but most of the time their heads were bent to their knees or lower. And BENT is the key word here.
Is this LONG & LOW? Sorry, but I think it is just plain ridiculous. So far behind the vertical.
How is this affecting a horses back muscles?
I don't see how the horse can see where he is going.
Is this what all this vertical flexing does to a horse?
And if you get a horse that is used to being rode this way, how would you get him to stretch to the bit again? I think that would be a heckuva job!!
Sorry, a little venting here! But when a well respected clinician is showing this method of training.....well, he may be good for ground work methods, but I am not impressed with this at all.
I am rethinking my riding now. Especially after Melissa comment: I think as far as correct long and low goes, there isn't a lot of lee way........but it's not long and low.
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Member:
Canderso
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 6:47 pm:
The reason to do long and low is to exercise (or demonstrate) the extension part of a horse's longitudinal flexibility. We stretch the horse out over its topline (long and low)... and then compress it (collection).
We care about longitudinal flexibility because this is what allows us to adjust the horses 'frame' from tail to nose. Long and low builds the right muscles to allow the horse to carry itself through the different degrees of extension that we require as we jump a combination, prepare for a water jump on the cross-country course, go from collected to extended canter, or whatever.
It is also a terrific way to begin a cool down for the horse- they do love to stretch!
So are there many degrees of doing it correctly? Well, from a dressage competition perspective, this is a specified movement, so there is only one way. From a training perspective, if you aren't doing the exercise correctly, then you aren't getting the benefit.
Note I am not saying there is only one way to achieve Long and Low- this discussion outlines a number of ways to get there...but the objective/result is the same.
More importantly, (and the reason why I jumped in earlier), long and low is a 'dangerous' exercise. If done incorrectly, the horse is taught to work behind the bit on its forehand with its haunches trailing...which I think we all agree is really not a good thing.
... I can't wait to see what happens next year when everyone decides they need to use rollkur to stretch the horse's back ... (heavy sigh)
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 6:52 pm:
Angie, I know it looks confusing, but he is not teaching long and low. Not with youngsters. He is teaching a horse to be as soft and supple as can be and if you see the end training results it is nothing like what you saw watching the begginning of training. He is teaching in the beginning getting the horse to give the second he feels contact. . You cant teach everything at once, It takes time lots of it.Just like in dressage correct long and low comes after training. back. All these different training methods get confusing. I say do what ever works best for you. If you saw all the training from begginning to end you would understand the concept. You cant just watch a little piece of the puzzle and see the end result.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 25, 2006 - 7:49 pm:
Cheryl is correct. Great description. If you dont know wether a horse is on the forehand or hollowing his back or cant feel the horse rounding his back get someone to watch. another way to tell if your horses back is rounded is the comfort level. A horse on the fore hand or hollow in the back feels totally different than one that is using his back muscles. You can feel it more easily at the sitting trot. They also have to feel soft in your hand. a horse travelling with too much weight in the front leans on your hands if you have contact if not they feel like they are plodding along. I wish I was one with words. I am trying to explain a feeling that I am bumbling at. I learn from feel, my brain however is not good at relaying it.
It however is totaly different from teaching a horse to DrOp his head which is also a great thing as who ever heard of frightened horse with a low head. It is a relaxing or calm down cue as I think John lyons uses. I am pretty sure that was already said. I do think that before teaching this you must know the feel of what your horse is doing under you. so you know if what you are doing is right or wrong.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 6:00 am:
Whatever the discipline, whatever the exercise, whatever the level, a horse's face must never come behind the vertical.
Already a perfectly vertical face is too much, even for a very advanced horse.
The only reason to bring a horse's face on or behind the vertical is to kill his impulsion if he is too much for you.
In that case, it is better that the rider gets himself a horse more suitable to his level and works him properly than just killing the big boy's spirit and way of moving.
It is sad to me to see horses 1 or 2 years into their training with their faces vertical.
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 8:12 am:
1 to 2 YEARS! I see them at 2 months!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 9:47 am:
A correction from my post above: I meant to ask is that what all the LATERAL flexing does to a horse? Is lateral flexing helping to put him behind the vertical? If so, how hard is it going to be to get the horse on the bit, and then "long and low?"
See, what I am having trouble with is after being used to riding with contact, now I am trying to do the clinicians way of loose rein, let the horse find his balance, and all the softness and flexing that go with it. I think my horses are confused and I am second guessing myself now.
Can we do the lateral, get the softness, and all, without the horse behind the vertical? I so agree with Christos on what he said. And ya, Gwen, I think folks think that is so cool to have the horses head tucked so nicely.
The trainer I watched yesterday was doing circles with a 3 year old, tugging him around with a shanked bit!!! And when asking for a back, the mouth was open also.
True, this was a small part of the training, and apparently horses win reining competitions being trained this way.
But, I would think that no matter what the horse is excelling in, (and they are all great athletes) this long and low, using the back muslces would be very important. And the behind the vertical, counter productive.
You are all helping to put it in to perspective.
Maybe I am asking 2 many different things; but I would think a well trained, well muscled horse is just that: well trained, well muscled.....and have the ability to "tuck his little nose" as well as "stretch his topline".
Is this an unrealistic goal?
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 11:48 am:
Angie, Lateral flexing is not supposed to put him behind the vertical. It is just to pre step help them give vertically, I had those same questions when I changed from dressage to Clinton Anderson. I was very confused. when you go further thru the lessons you will have the horse back on contact. I think the very last lesson in the second riding with confidence tape is collection at the canter. Once you get this far along or even further you should be able to get long and low. after all you do need the contact to achieve long and low. You will never be able to do long and low with no contact. Does that make it a bit easier to understand. You will not be able to achieve it until you get further along in training with Clinton Anderson.
As for the behind the vertical That is not what is supposed to be happening with the training. I think that the clinicians are not too concerned as the further down the training they stop doing it and carry themselves properly. I don't like to see them behind the vertical. Mine never was while training. a 3 year old in a shanked bit. Now that's horrible.
Your goal is the ultimate and its not unrealistic. Having a nice relaxed willing and happy horse should be the real goal
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 12:22 pm:
Also Angie, I dont need to do the flexing any more. That is just a teaching aid or lesson . They say to keep doing it, for suppleness but I have no need as my horse is a soft as I want and he is on contact and is never behind the vertical. Like I said what you saw is 1 page of the book. Dont let it discourage you. But then again I think you should do what you are most comfortable with. If going back to your regular way works then go for it. Just have fun. Its not fun when it gets to complicated.
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 1:09 pm:
i shudder when i hear the phrase "tuck the nose in"... dressage, and long and low, comes only from the rear... the "shape" of the neck and where the head is positioned depends solely on how well the horse can carry itself, and the rider's skill on correctly holding that energy... while there should be light contact with the horse's mouth, the actual gathering of the energy should happen thru the seat, which, at long and low, is correctly done at posting trot...
never is the horse's head tucked... it goes into that position because of what the rest of the body does... in actuality the lower neck muscles stay relaxed.. they should almost "jiggle" as the horse moves.. the airway is open..mouth should always be relaxed, never wide open... if at anytime in training the mouth is gaping wide, you've missed the boat..
a lot of people will do flexing to teach the horse to give his jaw better.. if you have a horse that has been poorly trained and is very resistant it can be helpful.. a horse that has been correctly brought along should never need to be flexed...if overdone the horse will learn to escape and go behind the bit, thereby losing all energy from the hind end and DrOpping the back..
its really the sort of thing that should never be taught from a book - or internet as the case may be.. personally i feel that only working with a good correct classical dressage trainer can one really learn to feel correct long and low...
occasionally, really really really good classical dressage trainers will let a young horse go behind the vertical if they feel it necessary to help the horse find itself... sometimes it's used as a VERY BRIEF stage in their training, especially if they lack a lot of muscle and cant correctly push themselves thru, or if they are very tight in their back... generally speaking, i wouldnt let a horse get behind the vertical on any regular basis, becauase unless you really know what you're doing, you'll let your horse "DrOp out" of what you're trying to accomplish
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 5:36 pm:
Elizabeth, check the book again, please. It is hard to believe that Dr Klimke ever described such a method.
Again, long and low is not work on the bit. It is just letting the horse relax, DrOp his head and stretch all the way to the ground on very little or no contact while the tempo stays the same. If the horse speeds up it means that he's falling on the forehand and he's trying to catch his own weight by running, ie he can't carry the rider in balance without support in his mouth.
Long and low is so basic it is not even dressage. It is the way of moving the young horse learned in his first week or two on the lounge. Nothing advanced, nothing difficult. The reason it is demanded even in very advanced levels is just to display that the horse has not forgotten his basic balance, that he is still a horse.
A lot of lateral flexing of the head and neck makes the horse unstable in the poll and withers and rubbery in the neck, not a desired effect in Dressage. I have my doubts for pleasure horses, it may be a good thing for their intented use, ie emphasis on softness and maneuverability on the expense of impulsion and absolute lateral control.
Melissa, classical dressage trainers do not even think of ever working any horse behind the vertical, even for a single moment. At least not in Cadre Noir or the Spanish School of Vienna.
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 6:07 pm:
i have to respectfully disagree with christos as to why it is shown at the advanced levels... the farther up "the ladder" a horse goes, the more relaxed and soft the back gets... the more correct and farther forward/down a horse can reach, the more it shows just how correct a horse gets... it should come naturally, without having to "work the mouth"... at the upper levels its not showing the horse has basic balance, but is in fact showing that the horse has "advanced balance and freedom in his topline".. at every stage the ability to do long and low should improve...
the classical dressage trainers i knew learned when it was briefly appropriate to let a horse go slightly behind the vertical in those certain situations while they were at the spanish riding school
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 6:25 pm:
Aha, making more sense now. I am actually reviewing Clinton's riding with Confidence, I have watched it all once, so apparently I need to finish it the second time.
What is interesting, is my Arab mare is almost rubber necked from all the flexing, but she is more apt to go hollow in the back on me. She is indeed soft from lateral, but we missed the boat on long and low many years ago. (she's 17)
I do get my 7 yr old green gelding to seem to relax and stretch down. At a walk and trot he will do this and I can feel the difference. But he's not as good with the lateral!
Melissa and Katrina, you both helped me to understand. Thank you.
Good thing this is a life long process. Maybe by the time I am like 90 it'll be second nature, HA!
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 6:49 pm:
your arab mare is exactly why flexing does not equal getting horse to relax jaw and "give".. it is also why "flexing" or getting the horse to just "give in to pressure" should only be done in very limited amounts with horses who've had some very bad training and are extremely resistant to any sort of bit contact (assuming its not physical).. if its not followed thru correctly with teaching the horse to move from behind and thru its back, it hasnt accomplished much.... you can reteach your mare, but quite honestly i'd tell you to get real comfy with how its done correctly before doing it... a horse with longstanding resistance will take time, patience and absolute correctness on the part of the rider...
once you truly feel it-and quite honestly when done right its a very unique feeling, it will be almost "easy"
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 6:53 pm:
What does the SRS do if their horses are unruly?
I don't know and have never been to the SRS but I have seen an SRS rider, and he did allow btv for BRIEF moments. My assumption is they are focused with the final goal in mind, not every step they take can be "correct" but they are surely the kindest to their horses.
Angie, I tell everyone I know that I'll be lucky to get to 2nd level before I'm 90 So why sell my horse! lol
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 26, 2006 - 9:53 pm:
Christos I meant in my post that you have to have contact in order to give and release the contact. otherwise it means nothing.
Angie you can tweak the exercises a touch to fit your way of riding. I did. The first tape is not what you will be doing in the future its like teaching a baby to walk. Little steps.
Good luck and most of all have fun.
Katrina
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 9:20 am:
Melissa
My arab mare has only been trained by me. I was told ground drive her, lunging is a waste of time. Always use a running martingale with a snaffle, then go to a full bridle!!!
So I did that, and I think it was the 4 reins part that started the hollow back. Or perhaps the martingale? I haven't used either on her for years and I like this lateral flexing concept much better. There has been so much improvement in her since I started that.
I have this horse for sale but keep working on the retraining as she's still here. Think she'd make a better gaming horse than western pleasure...riding on a loose rein at any speed other than the walk is beyond her comprehension, LOL!!
Yes, Katrina, I am still having fun. It's such a thrill to work on this stuff, and get those "aha" moments. That's why I have 4 horses, all at different stages of training. Each horse is different and I love it. My husband thinks (knows?) I am nuts. Can't understand why we can't have 2-3 nice well trained riding horses! I am now thinking of getting a mustang, or saving a Premarin mare or foal. Guess I am a gluten for punishment, huh??
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 12:02 pm:
Angie,
If your mare is "almost rubber necked from all the flexing" I think we have a different definition of "flexing". What are you doing with your outside rein?
I was taught that it's flexion at the poll we're going for, not somewhere along the neck. I maintain contact with my outside rein and do a "flex and release" with the inside to soften the poll. I'm not sure of the anatomy, but it doesn't seem like the horse can be soft in the poll and stiff in the jaw at the same time.
Chris
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 27, 2006 - 1:57 pm:
angie, sounds like your mare learned to DrOp behind the bit and hollow her back.. when you put her in a lighter bit she doesnt accept contact, but instead just hollows her back... depending on situation her head will be up or down....
she learned to hollow her back not necessarily because of the 4 reins or ground driving, but because of the lack of proper impulsion from her hindquarters thru her back, and the training that taught her to let go in her back.. many people get sucked in by the position of the neck, which means just about nothing in correct training...
chris, you're just about right with what you're thinking..., but always remember it starts from the hind end and the relaxation in the back.. in a horse that doesnt have any real problems very little is actually done by the hands...
if the horse is stiff in the jaw he cant be correct...
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Friday, Jul 28, 2006 - 2:15 pm:
Melissa, you are right about the Spanish Riding School putting their horses btv on occasion. Here is a quote from Enst Hoyos who spent 29 years at the SRS, "At the Spanish Riding School they have to work their horses through just like everyone else, just like we do - and then when you get into an arena to present them, then they go on the vertical. You have to work behind the vertical, and you do it in the Spanish School."
Cheers
Sue
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 29, 2006 - 5:52 am:
The stallions of the SRS are very rarely presented with a vertical face. It is simply not considered a proof of anything. So no, they don't work them behind the vertical so they present a better vertical face during the performance.
Training of the young stallions in the SRS is now open to the public. I watched it twice this winter and did not see a single face behind the vertical.
I doubt that the SRS will bother with Mrs Wilcox's statements, however I asked for their comments and I am waiting for a response.
I guess they will simply laugh, but I will also ask them in person during their tour in Germany in November.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 29, 2006 - 6:14 am:
Aileen, when the horses are unruly they simply drive them forward.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 29, 2006 - 3:43 pm:
Oohhhh.... That forward thing again
btw, rode the mare today and I did better about looking up Thanks Christos
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Member:
Gwen
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2006 - 11:05 am:
My tb is stretching out to my hands very well, but when I asked him to canter, he got heavy and stayed very quick at the trot after. Christos wrote that using hands to slow (pulling) is not good to do, so other than slowing my posting, how do I teach him about half-halts when he is all fired up like that? I feel stupid asking that, but I am trying to picture the best strategy when he is too forward and heavy. I also think I should not be cantering yet??
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2006 - 12:32 pm:
Hi Gwen,
I was taught every time they sped up do a downward transition. (the opposite of what they want) When the canter gets faster than you want bring them to a full stop. then try again and again. Eventually they don't want to rush because they are expecting to stop.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2006 - 2:40 pm:
This discussion is becoming horribly long, Gwen, let's not add different subjects to it.
Please start a new discussion, what you describe is a common problem and many people would like to add their suggestions.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 8:42 am:
The answer of the SRS was to not comment at all on Mrs Wilcox's statement (or Mr Hoyos's if you prefer) but to simply attach the school's brochure:
https://www.srs.at/fileadmin/pdf/srs/jahresprogramm_06_e_3.pdf
Pretty loud and clear, I think.
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 12:00 pm:
Christos, the statement has nothing to do with Lisa Wilcox. It is a direct quote by Ernst Hoyos. There is no reason for him to lie as he'd have absolutely nothing to gain by doing so - in fact just the opposite.
As Melissa states, going MOMENTARILY btv is strictly a single dot in time that can serve a specific purpose in a specific situation and Ernst is not the only SRS rider to state this. It's obviously not something that is done routinely but it does happen both on purpose and accidentally just as Rudi Rostek (currently an Elite Rider at the SRS) also stated at a clinic he was giving in the US just last week.
We are not talking rollkur here or anything even close to that. Just one single teeny weeny moment and then back to normalcy.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 12:32 pm:
I am totally western and although I love watching those wonderful horses, I am very uneducated in the world of dressage. Following this and other posts, I must ask a question. Please don't think me rude, but with all this striving for excellence, do you all really enjoy riding? I mean, btv for a tiny moment is debatable? Are you ever able to just relax and enjoy a nice ride.
DT
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 12:51 pm:
Hi Sue,
I saw Rudi last weekend in northern VA! Wasn't he wonderful? The BTV question came up at this clinic, too, and he answered (logically enough) that it depends on the horse, the rider, the problem that needs to be corrected, etc.
Words of wisdom.
And yes Dennis, dressage riders can relax, but the more serious they are about showing and winning, the less true that seems to be. That is why I am a huge dressage aficiondo, but really don't like showing all that much. Trust me, when it comes to the western disciplines (reining, western pleasure, etc) and just about anything other discipline where winning at shows is an all-important goal, relaxation tends to go right out the window.
I love buying horses who have been rejected from very intense show homes and then turning them out into a big field with other horses to play and have fun. They think they have died and gone to heaven.
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New Member:
Mzollars
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 1:06 pm:
Dennis, I was wondering the same thing myself. I am also all Western. I have a 7 year old Hollywood 86 mare that I don't think I would trade for the world. I can heel on her this weekend, team pen on her next weekend and on Sunday, strap the saddle bags on with a few cold beverages and sit back for a 4 hour trail ride. I don't know much about dressage either, so I certainly have no right to criticise. I'm just curious about the other disciplines.
Can you take that same horse out of the arena and take a nice long trail ride?? I'm glad you brought this up Dennis because I've always wanted to know.
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 1:07 pm:
Charlotte,
to answer your original question without getting into the technology that abounded after. Have you ever worked your horse for a bit and then as a treat let the reins go after a particular movement? your legs relax. and you might even slump a bit? moving him off at a walk. Ever feel the horse under you almost heave a sigh of relief and his head DrOps, and his stride expands? walk him off a bit like this and you'll start to feel the long and low without getting into all this rhetoric. This is how you start the process. slowly expanding on it from there. not sure if anyone explained what it is. how you might achieve it. Or even know what it is...(personally i stopped reading when christos claimed the books are wrong)... After a tight trot or any flat work when walking him off that is where i get my long and low. And its a natural gait they relax into. I would take that from there. Also, you mentioned a weak back and strengthening it from this. Yes and no. The yes part would be when he relaxes not to let your guard down, keep your legs around him, to keep the back from DrOpping. when his back DrOps, you will see him walk more on the forehand... which is not good to strengthen the back... The best way i have ever seen is strengthening the back from lungeline work first. Because no matter what happens if you aren't a great seat, you might be hampering the back... At least on the ground you can get it to physical good shape, and then start from there too. and try not to use any mechanical devices to get them to work their back, or give to the poll or any of that nonsense. Just give it plain old time in training.. Unless there is a problem, and then bring in any traning aids, etc...
Hope that helps a bit...
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 1:08 pm:
Sue, Lisa Wilcox supported the same idea in an interview to The Horse. She said Ernst Hoyos taught her that.
I understand a horse going behind the vertical by accident. On purpose, I do not understand it at all.
When exactly does a horse need to be brought behind the vertical? Why?
"It helps him find himself" means absolutely nothing to me.
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 1:10 pm:
Debbie, I envy you as I wasn't there but a friend was and she gave me a complete rundown of events. Would have given my eye-teeth to have gone! Since the SRS tour last year, there have been quite a few of their senior riders giving clinics this side of the pond and the feedback from all is just fantastic. Let's hope they keep coming back!
Dennis, you made me laugh. And yes to everything that Debbie said! For me, I love the challenge of arena work and the pleasure of hacking out equally. I'm very lucky in that I have several horses to ride and they are all at different stages in their development. But they all do equal time in the arena and on the trail. Variety truly is the spice of life and it sure makes for happy horses and a happy rider.
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 1:25 pm:
dennis, you made me laugh too.. for many dressage riders, they really enjoy that intensity.. it is a true challenge to put all that together,and many people really do trule enjoy it.. i know i do... there is a particular feel when you ride down the centerline in perfect self carriage and lightness... i also love to kick up my heels and go galloping down the trails as far as my little guy will go.. the two are equal, just different.. at least for me.. cant speak for everyone tho...
and as far as btv (wow, what a can of worms we opened here!)...sometimes you get horses that are so tight in their back... most of the time you can work them thru it the "correct" way, with just little "blurbs" that are the normal course of life... i have on occasion come across a horse where the tightness in his back was such that we had to go an "alternate" route to get him to "open up"... if you maintain generally correct forward impulsion and ride the horse correctly and of course recognize that you are fixing a particular problem then btv is not this horroble thing... if your horse has been brought along correctly, then really you wont find much place for it... not all horses have luxury to be raised with SRS.. remember the most important thing to getting collection is the relaxed back... if you dont have that, then everything else is fake... if the horse is such that he needs to get btv to give him the idea of letting go in his back, then so be it... we've never done this for more than a few days.... and then had easy success getting true correct self carriage afterwards...
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 1:38 pm:
Christos, since Lisa used to be coached by Ernst, that isn't surprising.
To answer your question why, I would think you would have to ask Ernst or Rudi. Just like Ann said somewhere above, I should have known better than to get involved in this debate.
Megan, when I start my young horses, they are trail ridden more than they are worked in the arena. Even rounded up cows once when some escaped from a neighbor's field! There is a lovely park about a 5 minute haul away from home that has about 11 miles of horse trails through fields and in and out of woods. The perfect spot for a relaxing ride.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 1:40 pm:
During the clinic, Rudi used what he called "overflexion" to help a rider correct a mare that was constantly changing canter leads when asked for a simple shoulder fore in the correct lead. He had the rider overflex the
mare momentarily on each side of the neck in order to unlock the mare from thinking that all rein aids meant "flying change."
He said he does not generally condone riding horses BTV. However, he did use it as a corrective device for this particular horse (who was extremely talented, but very tense) and this particular rider (who was also extremely talented, but unable to avoid the flying changes when holding a very light contact).
Once the horse accepted and relaxed with the deeper flexion, the rider could ride once again with a very light, correct contact. It was a brief over-correction, and it was extremely effective at solving this particular problem with this particular horse under a rider with outstanding feel and timing.
He only used this technique with this horse/rider combination, he didn't use it for anyone else.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 1:43 pm:
Melissa, this is the same explanation I got for rollcur in Holland : "It helps him relax his back". Sorry, I'll pass.
Dennis, yes, it is very important.
Dressage is about bringing the most out of a horse.
Methods like working him behind the bit are about making a circus performer out of a magnificent animal.
For the rest we'll meet, you'll see for yourself.
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Member:
Mzollars
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 2:03 pm:
Sue, Thanks for clarifying. I suppose my limited experience with other disciplines makes me stereotypical to anyone who rides in a saddle with no horn!! I have ridden a few ASB's and most of them are lucky to see the outside of the barn in some cases. I worked 5 years for the owner's of Sky's Blue Boy on their brood mare farm, halter breaking, lead training, that sort of thing, but never learned to ride hunt seat. I haven't posted much, but I read the posts all day long at work! There is so much to learn from everyone here!!
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 2:06 pm:
Christos,
I agree, I hate when riders "crank and spank" and force their horses painfully deep where their noses are touching their chests. What I saw Rudi teach was "more than the usual" flexion, was more to the side than to the chest, and certainly not to the point of abuse. The flexion was done with tact, sensitivity and exquisite timing.
I think only extremely gifted riders can get away with using over-flexion as a tool, and I think that some riders on the international show scene(who are discussed often and sadly, who win often) do take it to the point of brutality.
This, I agree, is a true sin.
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 2:28 pm:
As usual, Debbie, great post and you hit the nail on the head.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 2:41 pm:
Thanks, Debbie, that makes sense.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 3:23 pm:
Debbie
You are so right about competing in the Western Disciplines as well .. it is all consuming. That is why I have never had a great desire to show, but I do admire the horses who do compete .. usually much more than I admire their human counterpart.
Christos ... "circus animal" ?
Surely you must admit that constant contact in the mouth, and spurs constantly tapping to get a horse to perform a maneuver he would not normally do is a bit of a performance as well .. is it not?
DT
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 3:24 pm:
I should probably start a new thread for this one but the other thing Rudi said that rather surprised me was that while working without stirrups is a fantastic way for young riders and professionals to develop their seats, it is not the best idea for the adult beginner.
He said that when it comes to the adult beginner who is learning how to ride later in life, riding without stirrups can be detrimental and can actually create more stiffness than keeping the stirrups. He said expectations must be different for adult beginners to keep complete and utter frustration at bay. Who would have thought!
PS - don't tell my husband that a top Spanish Riding School guy said that, as I have him working without stirrups to try to unlock his very stiff hip joint, and he hates every minute of it!
ssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 3:54 pm:
Dennis, this is exactly what I meant.
Constant hand and leg is no Dressage to me, it is circus riding.
Overbent horses, horses that are afraid of the bit or jump from the leg in fear of spur, horses that break cold sweat if they hear a whip swishing, horses with extinguished faces and nervous extravagant movement are not classically trained horses. They are poor circus animals.
To me, the top of Dressage is reached when the horse is actually working with very little contact here and there to guide him and the spurs, polished and useless, are only worn as an ornament.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 4:10 pm:
Christos
Agreed ..... As I said I am uneducated re: dressage, but that is what I "think" I see.
DT
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 4:12 pm:
What Christos said....
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 4:28 pm:
What you see is what it is, Dennis.
Horses are very competent performers but very poor actors. Their face never lies.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 5:29 pm:
Dennis, I have been walking around today thinking what a loser my horses have for an owner because I am not able to do what I have been reading here! Most of this has never even come up in my forty years in the saddle.
Thanks, all you dressage people for setting us straight that you DO have fun, and that not everyone must be so intense in order to not ruin their horses.
I hope my horses are happy with their simple rider. But I do learn a lot, and get plenty to think about when I read what you all have to say!
Erika
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 6:12 pm:
i agree with what you said christos about those types of horses not being classical dressage horses... i have no appreciation for rollkur at all whatsoever... if you think you have to overbend your horse to get him to relax his back at that stage in training, then the boat has sailed without you... by the time you enter any part of the showring at any level, then those days of fixing those types of problems are over... if you're still going back to it, you havent fixed it, and you need to reexamine your entire method...
a correctly classically trained dressage horses is very light in leg and hand-when done correctly you really dont use any at all... energy comes up, gathered through seat, hand or spur MIGHT help to fine tune if necessary..
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 6:37 pm:
Ah, Dennis thank you for posting what you did. I have personally always wondered why in tarnation anyone would want to ride in a top hat, coat, and high boots, hands filled with 4 reins and be so serious? Do they people ever put on jeans and flannel shirts, go through the woods, the streams and in the mountains?
Then, I started to see that "dressage" can mean many different things.
I think that arena/corral work, is working on dressage movements and muscle training. I try to strive for perfection in those situations, and relax on the trail.
Erika,
I hear you!!! My poor horses; all they have is me flopping around on their backs, legs all wrong, seat not working, hands maybe too hard.
I have often wondered how they would go if they had a "real" rider on them?
Thank God they are forgiving animals!
I am still amazed that a cow horse can work cattle or a barrel horse run barrels, without all this sophistacated training going on. I mean that cow horse, wow, do they ever dig in with the FRONT end of their bodies at times. And don't they really use their haunches too?
Just being a smart butt here a little bit.
As long as the rider is happy, the horse isn't in pain, or a being used as a circus animal, I think we are all doing o.k.
And geez Dennis, hope you don't plan on becoming anything other than the "cowboy" you called yourself!
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 8:16 pm:
Well I was just going to lurk on this thread but can't anymore now that it has taken a more theoretical turn. As a dressage rider, I have fun with the discipline, with getting the geometry of the movements correct and smooth, and mostly of feeling that my horse and I are conquering something challenging together. My dressage horse can jump, swim and also give kisses, so we fool around a good bit too.
But since you brought it up, I have some questions for the Westerners myself. Last night on RFD, I saw a program with Clinton Anderson teaching lead changes on "Mindy." Being of an open mind, I watched it to see if there was anything for me to learn. It was distressing. The whole time he was working this mare, she was at least 20 degrees behind the vertical, no matter the gait. He called this "getting her to bridle up." Worse, when he was cantering, it was totally four beat at all times. It looked uncomfortable and unnatural for the horse to say the least. Now, I don't know if he is famous for reining or just regular riding, but I would like to know what Western riders think about it. BTV INDEED.
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 9:35 pm:
Stacy,
While you mention RFD TV, I just got DISH network and have RFD TV for the first time. The dressage shows are on Friday's? Also does anyone know if there are any other interesting times for horse only shows I may DVR while not at home? We are central time zone.
Interesting about your comments by the way on Clinton Anderson's show about teaching lead changes. I too as a dressage rider was always told that having a horse behind the vertical was the worst thing you could do and one hard habit to break if you teach it because when the horse does that they are evading the bit and not "on the bridle". I am interested in what those in the western disciplines have to say as well.
Looking forward to reading everyone's posts.
Take care,
Corinne
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 10:59 pm:
wow this is a long post. I was not going to add to it as I said more than my share. Being a dressage rider and a new follower of clinton anderson. ( I love to ride dressage or western) I don't consider myself either now, just a lover of horse riding. I ride in an English saddle because I need the feel of close contact under me. In some defence of Clinton Anderson I will say that his reasons for behind the vertical are that he exaggerates his lessons them modifies it. He says that some horses are so willing they will go behind the vertical. If you watch closely they do this without any force its the horses response in trying to please. There is no force. the reins are soft and the horse does this with just a touch of rein then it is let loose and they stay in that position. He says he does not worry about this in the beginning as they find themselves and the correct head position. It is not as harsh as it looks. (PS I hate behind the vertical) I admit I change his lessons a bit to fit me and my horse. I pick and choose the information I have and have learned to fit it to myself and my idea of right and wrong . For instance my horse already knew basic dressage . So he found the exercises easy and very relaxing. He got long rewards between each movement and became a much more relaxed horse. The only only time I had him flexed to that extent was standing . I would ask for flexing to the right and he would stay there without contact. Clintons goal is for self carriage. It basically for the horse to hold a collected frame without force same goal as dressage. Just a different way of going about it. For dressage riders it looks so different. But you know what the horse is the teacher. If he has his ears back or shows any time that this is wrong for him then obviously it is. I have to say I have a more happy relaxed horse using his methods. My horse does not lie. Believe me when I say that. I know that if I did a dressage competion right now he would be alot better than he was. Isnt the goal to have a happy relaxed willing horse that is soft off your legs and hands? Why do things have to be right and wrong just because they are different. The proof is in the pudding. I am going to go back to dressage after I have finished the 3rd of his tapes because I love dressage, but hey dont knock it till you tried it.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006 - 11:15 pm:
Sorry about this here I go again I am on a roll. How many honestly that do just dressage go out and have a flat out gallop with their horse. The dressage barns I know . Well they say to me if I cant control my horse in the arena how can I ride out on a trail. They think that because of over zealous dressage trainers and yes like Dennis said have in my opinion lost the fun. I know how the competition and excellence part of it fits in I was like that, but hey in all my 40 years of riding I have never had so much fun by being outside the box and stop worrying about what people say. Sorry this post is bringing out lots of emotions. Hugs to you all
Katrina
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 12:52 am:
Thanks for your perspective Katrina. I love dressage, even more so now that it's really coming together after three years of training.
To do things outside of the box, or shall we say outside of circles, I have two jumping lessons a week and will hopefully go on one trail ride per week (as the weather cools) which will be awesome because the other part of the land I board at is an elk farm and has vast and varied terrain.
Your right, it's fun to change things up.....can't wait until my first hand gallop on the open fields but we are not quite there just yet....so far I have galloped outside of an arena but not out in a open field....can't wait but when we do I know all my dressage training surely will come into play!
Any time I am on my horse whether I am hacking out, or in a dressage or jumping lesson or just toodling around I have fun. I think we all do, no matter what discipline or we wouldn't ride.
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 2:53 am:
Katrina I'm glad to hear he has addressed this at some point because in the video he never brought her to a different head position. The mare did look soft as she did her 30 mins of work, however, I wouldn't have thought a horse doing canter half-pass into a flying change would need that level of exaggeration for so long, and in all three gaits. Although he was gentle with her at all times, she was broken at the fourth vertebra to the extreme. I just thought it was pretty interesting to see a well-known Western clinician unabashedly using the controversial methods this post discusses. Have any of you seen the four-beat canter I describe? Is that what you are going for in the Western pleasure or reining arenas today? I'm not knocking anyone who cares for their horses with good sense and good horsemanship, I'm interested in the "difference" in training philosophies because I am open-minded.
Corinne, I used Dressage Connection to make it through the non-riding part of two pregnancies, and sometimes I browse through HorseTV.com(TV show) but I find my TivO essential to skip commercials.
Happy full-speed gallops to all today, Stacy
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 7:15 am:
I don't have cable that has the clinton tv shows.
Coming up are 3 shows with him working with dressage. I would love to hear from any one who is able to watch and see their opinions.
August 8 th , 2206 – Show 115 - . “Dressage with Kenneth Levy – Part 1” – In this episode, Clinton works with Champion Dressage Rider/Trainer, Kenneth Levy. In this three – part series Clinton will be working with Kenneth on the ground and under saddle
August 15 th , 2006 – Show 116 “Dressage with Kenneth Levy – Part 2” – In this episode, Clinton works with Champion Dressage Rider/Trainer, Kenneth Levy. In this three – part series Clinton will be working with Kenneth on the ground and under saddle
August 22 nd , 2006 – Show 117 - “Dressage with Kenneth Levy – Part 3” – In this episode, Clinton works with Champion Dressage Rider/Trainer, Kenneth Levy. In this three – part series Clinton will be working with Kenneth on the ground and under saddle
Katrina
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 7:41 am:
Corrine and Stacy. I do wish That Clinton would address this and explain his reasons more often.
He explains it in one of the tapes I have.
I think that we all learn best after learning from a few different trainers instructors or whatever. No one person can teach us everything. We are always learning and striving to learn more. I read that John Lyons said somewhere after teaching a certain way for years that he was wrong and had found a better way. So no matter who you are you keep learning that is why you must stay open in your mind and don't be closed as to one way and only one way works. It is not so.
Katrina
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 8:19 am:
Darn!! I was going to stay out of this now, but I just wanted to point out what many of us already know.
One of the best ring riders I know wins quite often, and is full of advice for us "seat of the pants riders" on all the little nuances she is aware of that we are not.
Took her and her horse out on a very gentle trail ride once. She could not negotiate down hill, water crossings, nor anything at a speed above an extremely slow, collected canter (the rest of us were barely trotting to keep her comfortable). After she fell off the second time at a walk, we called it quits and we took her back to the barn.
She looks great on her horse when circling in the ring.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 9:09 am:
I ride dressage and am training to show...but I do know how to have fun with my horse. We go outside of the ring and "play" in the open fields. Do I love the intensity of the sport? Absolutely! Do I like to have some "down time" with my horse? You bet. It's good for both of us, physically and mentally. I think you will find that many of the top riders (in any discipline) will train hard for a day or two and then go out hacking with their horse the next day and then go back to the ring.
Any dressage rider that drills and drills and drills their horse over and over, everyday, day after day, is probably missing the point of the sport. I dare say this is true of any horse sport -and I've seen plenty of hunter/jumpers and a few barrel racers who think more about the next show than the horse they supposedly care about.
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 9:19 am:
Katrina, thanks for the info - are those shows scheduled for RFD-TV? Who is going to be teaching who, or are they doing a contrast and compare kind of thing? Should be fascinating either way, especially given what I recently saw as described above.
The other thing I wanted to hear from everyone on was Anderson's positioning during the lateral movements. In dressage, we make a subtle shift of the body weight in the direction of the desired motion, but he was definitively leaning away from the direction of travel with a clearly collapsed hip. Again, I'm interested in the differences in the training philosophies as demonstrated by a clinician that a number of you on this board consistently reference.
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Member:
Mzollars
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 9:30 am:
Fran, I couldn't agree with you more on that last statement. I have seen many barrel races, team ropers etc, run thier horses into the ground at the thought of wining that next check. The poor things are ready to collapse from exhaustion and they just keep on running them. Unfortunately it happens much too often in the rodeo circuits. It is a pretty good indication that if they can't stand in the box, they've had enough. It really ticks me off. I'm afraid I don't have any input on the Anderson philosophy. I've been very fortunate with all my horses being very collected and soft. I don't even use a bit on my mare that I currently compete on. She is so soft and willing to work. She LOVES chasing those cows!!!!
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 9:54 am:
I didn't mean to start a "cultural" war here or a debate over which discipline is better. I only thought that, no matter what discipline we are involved in, that we should not lose the sheer enjoyment of it all.
I volunteer with our local 4H program and each year at the all important "show" I see kids and parents miserable all day long because their horse didn't perform a particular event flawlessly. Then I see a couple of kids out riding in the grass laughing and having a ball just riding, until Mom or Dad yells at them for being on the wrong lead, or slouching in the back, or whatever they might be doing wrong. I even saw two 13 or 14 year old girls riding in the arena during open "practice" time and they were actually talking to each other as they rode til one of the mothers yelled at the girl to "quit talking ... you're not out there to have fun, you're here to practice."
My only point is that whatever discipline your are involved in, and yes one can be as intense as another, please take time to enjoy your horse and let your horse enjoy himself. The bond we build with our horse is too valuable to let it slip away because he is not performing to the level we demand.
I have a great respect and love for all the horses I train, and I won't do anything I think is bad for the horse whether or not Clinton Anderson or Kenneth Levy or whomever may agree.
DT
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 10:04 am:
Hello,
I have to jump back in here. I am a self professed dressage rider and feel qualified to say that as I have shown successfully through 4th level and trained horses to go through 2nd level no matter what talent the horse had before coming to me. Here are some observations I have made over the years.
1) The most talented dressage riders come from an eventing/hunter/jumper/pony club/foxhunting background before deciding to specialize in dressage. This is because correct dressage involves acceptance of a horse that moves forward boldly. A little western pleasure jog and a four beat canter are incorrect. True collection means POWER to the nth degree. Most people who are whimpy ring riders can't handle this kind of power, so are stuck at the lower levels forever. You see them winning over and over again at Training and First levels, on the same 18 year old horse they have owned and shown at Training and First Levels for 10 years straight.
2) The best dressage riders are not only unafraid to jump their horses, they often use cavaletti and gymnastic grids to help build their horses strength, fitness, agility and power.
3) There are two kinds of people who are the most uptight dressage riders. Be patient with them, because the reasons behind their uptightness are at least somewhat founded.
The first kind is the lower level "ribbon collector" who keeps showing the same lower tests on the same lower level packer year after year. These people may have started riding later in life, or may not have the time nor money to buy the type of horse they need and then to pay a quality trainer to bring them and their horses along past the lower levels. Its ok! Just because little league isn't the major leagues doesn't mean kids can't have fun playing baseball. So what if they spend an eternity at the lower levels? So what if they make mistakes and do some things wrong while learning? At least they are enjoying a relationship with a horse. These people are full of fear though, and are attracted to dressage exactly because they are afraid of the power of the horse. You won't see them galloping through a field, but so what?
The second type of "fussy dressage person" is a genuinely competitive rider on a world class horse. Lets pretend you just went out and bought a brand new Ferrari Enzo Coupe for $650,000. Would you take it four wheeling in the mud? NO! The same happens with horses. World class dressage horses cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and can go into the millions. No, you will not see these horses and riders hacking out on a dusty trail ride. These horses will have perfectly controlled footing at all times and will have absolutely nothing done to compromise their physical health in any way. It can be over the top, with hand walking instead of turnout, but then again, wouldn't you do the same if you just spent a cool million on a living animal?
Me? I love dressage. I think of it as the MBA of the horse world. There is not one discipline that comes close to it if you want that trifecta of precision, power and grace where both horse and rider seem to read each others minds. That said, most horses out there are not million dollar world class horses. They SHOULD go out for a good gallop every now and then!
The most talented horse I ever owned was a Hanoverian mare I bought as a 2 year old and broke in as a 4 year old. By the time she was 8, she could do one tempi changes, half pass zig zags, canter pirouettes, whatever you wanted. She was brilliant. She also went trail riding, evented through preliminary, did hunters and jumpers and foxhunted. I think it was the diversification that made her so great.
This is a long post, but I just wanted to bring a bit of realism into the "dressage queen" image that so many non-dressage riders dislike. There are reasons people do what they do. Some reasons are better than others from a moral standpoint, but when it comes down to it, serious dressage folks are just like everyone else. They have found a way to enjoy a relationship with a horse. Good for them!
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 10:09 am:
BTW ... it looks like our HA horse vacation may be interesting indeed. I'll bring my striped shirt and whistle just in case.
DT
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 10:12 am:
Well said, Debbie. Thanks!
Erika
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 10:33 am:
Dennis, lol
Thank you Debbie, yes, very well said
Watching the truly classical dressage, I am always in awe. Watching the competitions, however, I cringe at times.
I am starting on the journey of dressage because I want to truly dance with my horse. I feel that the best gift I can give him is to learn to ride correctly (remember I learned the wrong way and I believe that is one of the main reasons that I am having so many soundness problems now - he was cranked and spanked, not forward, not riding back to front, but from the front to the back -- hand riding, not riding from the seat). I can only hope he stays sound enough so that I can do this. My dream as a little girl was to do the one tempis across a field... hopefully we'll still be able to learn that.
BTW, He LOVES to chase cows and is quite good at it...it's his favorite thing to do...However, I don't know if he'll be able to do that again...
ps. I saw Clinton in person once and I did not like what I saw at ALL.
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 10:57 am:
Debbie, Couldn't agree more.
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Member:
Mzollars
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 11:04 am:
Aileen, what breed is your guy? I've always been interested in how certain breeds and bloodlines are more adaptable than others to certain disciplines. I've always believed that they all need a job, and in my opinion, no job is better than any other. It's whether or not the horse likes and is suited to his job. I've ridden so many horses that people wanted to make world champion cutting or reining horses that just didn't have that "instinct" (for lack of better word). But never-the-less, they give it a try, ending up with a very irritated horse and a frustrated rider.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 11:23 am:
He's an arabian/paint cross...and "cowy" but two trainers said he was too tall to "get down" on a cow (15.3) so I never pursued it. But watching his expressions, and how his ears barely came off the calf, it was obvious he enjoyed himself... I had to do that hand on the wither thing to get him off a calf (not cows...they're too big for me...we only did calves) He loved it and we had fun.
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Member:
Mzollars
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 11:42 am:
Yes, compared to my 14.2 cow "pony" that is a bit tall, but I've seen quite a few that big "get down" with the best of them! It's amazing to me that I can just sit down and hang on and let her work. Most of the time she knows what to do, and does it, before I catch up. Ever try staying on a short little cow horse that slides on her rear end picks up and spins 180 after a cow before you can even think about it?? Now that is fun!!
Ps- we use Corriente cattle most of the time. They are a very small breed.
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 12:21 pm:
Well said again, Debbie. Your definitions are spot on.
Kthorse, just to answer your question (albeit several posts ago by now!) you can gallop all of my horses on trail and just like yours, they have a blast. They also get schooled over fences and do roadwork. All part of being a well-rounded and reliable partner.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 1:56 pm:
Debbi G.. i applaud you for hanging on to this discussion and loved your discription of the Dressage Queens... " So what and its OK " for what ever level one chooses to perform at and for what reason .. perfect..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 1:58 pm:
Dennis I didn't think you intended a cultural war at all, but you did open a door in my mind for an educated discussion on the differences between disciplines. Both dressage and some forms of western riding have factions that using BTV and "long and low." I've heard the dressage arguments for and against - are any of you riding western as Anderson shows, and if so, what is the logic from your side of the saddlebags so to speak?
I think we all have fun and care about our horses, or else there wouldn't be such a passionate response as evidenced above.
Sorry to be so persistent, but I don't hear anything from all of you who always mention the Clinton videos on the points of position of horse and/or rider I brought up. All this in the interest of education, not judgement. Stacy
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 3:20 pm:
Debbie, I totally agree.
The main problem with modern Dressage is that most Dressage riders are nowhere close to a match for their horse's power and ability.
People buy or breed superb sporthorses, animals of monstrous ability, then try to make ponies out of them by "softening" and "relaxing" them into a frame and way of moving that only kills their spirit, impulsion and ability to use their power.
No, they do not stay at home because their horse is expensive. They stay at home because they're afraid.
They're terrified of galloping "this thing" on the beach. "What if he won't stop" and "What if he bucks" are too common worries.
Of course he will not want to stop if he knows he won't gallop again for a year! Of course he will chip in a couple of bucks and some nonsense! That's what vacation is for, remember?
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 4:02 pm:
Christos,
Boy do I agree with you there! This happens a lot and to be honest with you, I don't blame the riders. I blame the trainers for grossly overmounting their students. I think some trainers do this accidentally, as there is always a certain level of risk when matching any horse and rider combination.
What concerns me is the vast number of trainers that appear to intentionally overmount their students. And why wouldn't they? The benefits are multiple:
1) Trainer gets a finders commission based on a very nice, expensive horse
2) Trainer gets fees for lessons, training and showing this magnificent animal so that the horse will "eventually" be ok for the owner to ride
3) Trainer won't have to admit he/she was wrong when grossly overmounting student with SuperFancyGermanHorse.
A lot of the full time trainers who live near me do not like me very much because I am brutally honest when I "talk shop" with their students at social gatherings. I will say things like "that doesn't sound fun, do you actually enjoy riding your horse?" and if they confess they don't, I kick them in the pants down the road of selling and finding a more suitable horse for them.
So, they do that and go horse shopping with newfound wisdom. When they finally find a horse that is more suited to their level of talent and ability, they say things like "I have found the perfect horse for me and I love him but, I am just not 'in love' with him..."
Thats when I promise them that they will be in love with the horse in question the very first time they ride it at a full canter in the field. Sure enough, time and time again, they follow through and are happy horse owners.
It all comes down to expectation management. I think it is unfair for trainers to tell their students how much they will win if they buy some hot shot, well blooded horse. Suitability, suitability, suitability.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 4:33 pm:
Touche, Christos and Debbie,
The ring rider I used in my example wasn't even a dressage rider--didn't mean to sound like I was on attack mode.
My point was just that: Ride ride ride in the ring but be very afraid of a "real" ride in the "real world".
Happens in all disciplines, but I get weary sometimes of those ring riders who tell the rest of us we are not doing the right thing. Pretty is as pretty does...
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 5:20 pm:
Debbie,
Fantastic insight to share with us. That helps to put things into perspective.
My only thought is these gazillion dollar horses just aren't allowed to be horses. And like any sport, the riders are starting younger and younger and it's all about the win. To each his own of course...it's not anything I'd ever want to do. But if I can learn to ride better with each passing year, that would be all I can hope for.
Yea, Dennis, maybe the whistle and striped shirt, lol!! Especially if we get into any political discussions!
Katrina,
Thanks for posting Clintons shows that are coming up.
Who is this dressage guy? Is he really well known and well respected?
That will be intersting. I can't wait to hear if he can defend his reasons for the BTV or if he will even try.
I am not an expert on anything horse related I figure, but even I can see that some of what he is doing doesn't seem right, even if like with his seat and weight, I can't say exactly what is wrong. But I find myself asking why? and what?
This reminds me of a girl who became Rodeo Queen when I was a kid. She had a perfect trained horse, a personal trainer for her and the horse, parents that could afford the perfect show saddle, perfect show clothes.
Don't think she ever touched a fork, doubt she even brushed the horse.
I don't think that is the case with "Dressage Queens" and don't mean to suggest that; but it did leave me with NO desire to show, or let my kids show either. I do believe everyone in their chosen discipline works very hard.
Erika,
I think an example of someone who is a great horse person and understands HORSEMANSHIP does not tell the rest of the folks how to ride. That is what makes a true HORSEMAN/WOMEN....they realise everyone learns at their own speed and has their own strengths. But they do share their expertise if asked, and don't act like it's a big mystery only they understand.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 5:28 pm:
The riders are not only not to blame, they are the ones who suffer the most.
We often talk about this or that being uncomfortable or cruel for the horse, we never talk about the agony, pain, discomfort and frustration of the rider.
And modern competition often becomes unnatural and unfair to the horse, but my main objection with it is that it has become totally cruel to the rider.
People are forced or fooled into unnatural and cruel discipline that one won't find in the toughest special forces on this planet.
They are persuaded that they will gain heavenly harmony through pain and frustration, that mastering horsemanship takes years and years of incomprehensive drills, that whatever goes wrong is due to theirs or their horse's lack of talent.
Then, of course, the all expected tip : "May be if you buy a better horse, I know a friend who....". Which, more often than not, only adds financial destruction to an already tragic picture.
You can imagine, I am not very popular in show or competition circles. Because I don't care at all for my horse's pedigree, I just bought him because I liked him.
And while people were trying to explain that perhaps with a couple of thousand more I could get myself a truly magnificent animal, I was still speechless at this big boy's recovery rates. 140 bmp for ten minutes, down to 50 within a minute. And he's out of shape !
Also, the fact that this horse never ever swishes his tail (it's functional, I saw him swat a fly once) slipped past everybody's attention. All prospective buyers were busy researching his pedigree and ribbons while we were closing the sale with the owner, an 80yo man who was hunting on this horse until last year, when his physician suggested that he should take it a bit easier now.
And of course, I got a thousand comments on his trot not being what people see in competition. A horse that came from one year in the pasture, can you believe this ?
How lost and confused people can be...
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Member:
Leilani
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 6:04 pm:
Aileen,
What didn't you care for with Clinton Anderson? Just curious; we never get any 'big' names here. Leilani
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 7:09 pm:
Leilani, I'll just say he reminded me of how my horse was trained.
Christos and Debbie, thank you very much for your input. I'm feeling a bit better now.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 7:39 pm:
wow what an interesting post. Stacy and Angie I am not sure of the dressage rider but he is supposed to be very good and wins a lot. I am not sure what its going to be about and am bummed that I cant watch it. Also Stacy to answer your question, his body position is also to exaggerate. This is also for training purposes only. For example when he starts lessons to control the hip and hind he gets you to turn your body to to look at the hip. This helps the horse learn the lesson very fast. Obviously you don't need to do this once the horse associates your leg with the movement. All his videos and shows are ways of training not what the finished result is. Its all exaggeration designed to teach the horse a little faster. Does that make sense I am terrible at explaining.
I think the term dressage queen is a horrible term . It is used by people who are also in the box not open to other ways.
Debbie that is so true unfortunately the only dressage riders I know fall in the other categories you mentioned . I do not blame the riders I actually feel so sorry for them because they are missing out on so much. I blame the instructors that make them feel like they are not capable of more. I agree that the best dressage riders are as you describe . I am talking of the ones learning at lower levels that don't have confidence in themselves because of their instructor. Or don't know enough to realize there is more to horse riding than the ring work. Or have a horse that is way to much for them as has all been mentioned. Debbie, I don't have the pleasure of working with someone of your experience or of Christos. If I did maybe I would have not gone on my search for a better or should I say different way. Dressage is the most beautiful disipline of all. I still like to call myself a dressage rider as that is my love.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 7:50 pm:
FYI I just had to mention Clinton Anderson does not class himself as a western rider . In one of his beginner books he works with a dressage rider and a western rider to show how it can work for both disciplines.
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 8:08 pm:
Dennis, no striped shirt required! I'm sure we'll all be very civil and polite at Brushy Creek. After all, it's vacation time and our love for horses will conquer all, right? Plus since none of us are experts (except our dear Dr O) any disparity in is far too miniscule to matter.
Somehow I picture you in one of those Garth Brooks western two-tone jobs with the word Wrangler inscribed somewhere. Don't burst my bubble...
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2006 - 8:21 pm:
Stacy I forgot to mention I have no idea why the 4 beat canter. I cant defend him on that. I dont know the reason. Like I said I pick and choose what makes sense to me and that is not one of them.
Katrina
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Member:
Jivete
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Posted on Friday, Aug 4, 2006 - 9:19 am:
I just wanted to add my OT two cents...
When I was testing for my Pony Club "B" rating, the one girl that failed had won the dressage championship at Rally that year. She regularly rode 3rd level dressage yet failed after the dressage portion when we switched horses (she also fell off my mare during the jumping phase).
One of the things I love about Pony Club is that at the higher levels, they really emphasize the ability to ride different horses, not just your perfectly trained, push button one. When you have to get on a horse you've never ridden before and jump a course of 3'6" fences, your abilities or lack thereof really show.
I understand fear and the decision not to go out, but I agree with others. Just because you can ride it perfectly in a manicured arena does not make you a perfect rider.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Friday, Aug 4, 2006 - 9:21 am:
Ah ... you gotta' love this site.
Wrangler it is Sue ... may even work on my "handlebar" moustache a bit.
My understanding of Clinton Anderson techniques are that the primary goal is to develop a soft and responsive horse. As with most "training", I can only assume that dressage is no different in this respect, is that we exaggerate initially then refine ultimately. In my experience, you can actually watch the horse relax and become more supple as we do the flexion exercises from the ground and then from the saddle. IMO, this flexion and giving to the bit and lateral exercises is the "setup" if you will for much of the refined training to follow, since in Western, our goal is to work on loose rein and leg cues.
I do think that Anderson's vertical work is a little extreme for my taste, however. I might also add, that I absolutely hate the "new" WP lope and headset, which if I understand correctly may be under review .. I sure hope so.
DT
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Friday, Aug 4, 2006 - 10:03 am:
Christos,
I got to thinking about "blameless riders" and while it is true that most of them are putting blind trust in their trainers, there is definitely a segment of the DQ population who are simply insecure and feel they must have the most sexy horse out there to go with their inflated self image. I know because I used to be a full time trainer and I used to lose these students to other trainers who would sell them the bill of goods discussed above.
Of course, they always wanted to come back to me 6 months later after realizing they were spending a lot of time sitting on the bench while their trainers rode and showed their fabulous horses, and that when they finally got their chance to compete a level or two above where they were being "held back" with me, they weren't winning anymore or were being excused from classes.
Some people need to learn their lessons the hard way, but aren't we all a little bit like that?
The only good thing I have to say about these people and their trainers is that it makes for a wonderful exit strategy when I want to rid myself or someone I know of an industrial strength horse that is neither talented enough to be world class nor quiet enough for a true amateur. Someone needs to buy these horses, don't they?
And who better to buy them than someone with Black Beauty SynDrOme? You know the type: "the horse didn't work out for her, but she didn't treat him as well as I am going to treat him. She just doesn't understand him like I will. I am going to love this horse so much, he will be perfect for me! I am IN LOVE with him, and so it was meant to be!"
Keep in mind that I tend to undersell every horse I put on the market. I have, in fact, refused to sell horses to people in the past if I felt there was a larger safety issue at hand. It's funny because it definitely has a reverse psychology effect, especially when I tell a trainer point blank that I think my horse is too much horse for her student. The trainer almost always has a stomping fit. You can pretty much count on it. I get the whole verbal bio then ("I've been training horses for over 30 years, I know all about dressage, I have won many national championships, there is nothing this horse can do that I can't fix, blah, blah, blah...")
I just feel for the students because I while I KNOW that the trainer can handle anything the horse has to dish out, the larger and more important issue is, can the student handle it?
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Aug 4, 2006 - 10:07 am:
Katrina, my horse may be a gelding, but I still have to "ask" not "demand" ...and I'm sure Clinton's methods work for different types of horses, just not mine I am open to things "outside the box." I am forever questioning everything because when I didn't, I went down the wrong road...
I may be starting over again, and I may feel fear and frustration, but I think it's because I haven't been able to work with him for a long time and when I start "getting" it he goes lame again... Oh, and I am so far from perfect it's not even funny... one of the things the dressage riders I know feel is that we never ever stop learning...it is the eternal quest to be one with our horses that fuel our fire.
Dennis, thank you. I understand the flexions, but I don't understand why the demands and the extremes...
If I've been sensitive and made bad judgments this last week, please excuse me, today is Brave's big day and I've been very nervous and full of anticipation of what today will bring...so my head has not been screwed on right...
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Friday, Aug 4, 2006 - 12:12 pm:
Aileen,
That's what i am talking about. I think everyone should be able to choose what methods work for them. If Clintons doesn't and you find a way that is more comfortable for you and your horse I say go for it. We all have days of frustration you really arent alone. That's what gives us the strength to try harder or think of what to do to change the situation. Aileen I know you are open to anything. you tried and it did not work.
You said you are far from perfect. What is perfect? Perfect to me is enjoying my horse to the fullest. So if you enjoy your horse then isn't that perfect. The more you ride the more confident you will be its just the way it goes
Enjoy.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Aug 4, 2006 - 8:26 pm:
Thank you Katrina
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 5, 2006 - 10:08 am:
I have seen this gals DVD, Karen Rohlf, this is true poetry in motion.... she rides bare back with no bridle and performs all the upper level dressage moves... LOVELY..
https://www.dressagenaturally.net/index-Dateien/Page433.htm
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 5, 2006 - 3:56 pm:
Thanks for that link Ann. I'd like to get to a clinic with her. She reminds us all of need for the relationship with our horse to be primary, no matter what the endeavor.
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Member:
Charlott
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 8, 2006 - 9:17 am:
Thanks jojo for the advice. I have been out of the country for a few weeks and just checked back here and was surprised to see it was still going strong. I actually had not been lunging her as much any more, so maybe will give that a try as it makes sense to me.
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 8, 2006 - 9:16 pm:
Hello to all, the show that Katrina mentions above with Anderson and Levy doing dressage is tomorrow at 7am on RFD. I plan to watch it - should be interesting... Stacy
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 9, 2006 - 7:14 am:
Stacy, Let me know all about it. I am bummed to not get the channel on my cable.
Katrina
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Member:
Kathleen
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 9, 2006 - 12:31 pm:
I watched the show this morning. Levy and a student were with Clinton Anderson. The discussion was how Clinton's methods can help with any discipline and vice versa. This show was all ground work and he uses flexion, side to side, to supple, to get softness, and to put the horse in a position that makes it easier to disengage the hindquarters, which he emphasizes because it is a way any rider can gain control of his/her horse in an emergency situation. He doesn't hold the head in a flexed position for long periods of time, just long enough to get a slight softening from the horse, to get the horse to 'give' and not stiffen the neck and body. He rewards every little try, but expects more as he progresses. It is his philosophy that when you get lateral flexion, then vertical flexion just basically happens. This is a very simplified description on my part. Will have to wait for next installment to see how he applies this all to ridden work.
Kathleen
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 10:48 am:
Finally got to watch the Tivoed show. Interesting that Anderson's horse clearly respected him as opposed to Levy's horse who at times did some ear pinning and was initially sluggish. I am looking forward to the next program as well. I have not seen the "Lunging for respect" series, but my interest is peaked now. I have a three yo huge alpha filly who has not had all the extensive early groundwork of her predecessors on this farm, and she is disrespectful more than I would like. My mind is open, thanks to Katrina for the heads up.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 - 11:27 am:
Thank you Kathleen and Stacy for the update . I really appreciate it. and Stacy you are very welcome. Thats why I like him. The horses are so willing and soft and eager to please. At least mine turned out to be.
Katrina
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