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  Discussion on Gelding acting like stallion toward me!
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 31, 2000 - 1:38 am:

I have read the other articles to learn about this studdy behaviour my gelding has just started and all are in relation to mares....what do I do when my gelding carries on like this toward me? He's 9 yrs, TB, trialled as a galloper but too slow and is now a pleasure hack. He started deep knickering and sniffing and lifted and knocked me with his front leg yesterday. He has very occasionally deep knickered before but I have not paid much attention. But yesterday was so much I had to leave the paddock! He will also hang himself loose and occasionally stiffen and slap his belly, giving a little grunt. He scents everything (top lip curling) and is a very solid 16.2hh. Perhaps he was gelded late, hence his size and recent behaviour. I need to know how to deal with this behaviour. Walk away, growl, smack...any advice appreciated! Thanks!

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 31, 2000 - 7:35 am:

Also how long have you owned this horse? It is unusual for this type behavoir to begin years after gelding. Have any medications been used recently in this horse?

It is unclear from your post as to whether the knock from the front leg was clumsiness or intentional. We have an article in the Training: Behavior Problems Topic on dealing with aggressive behavior. It also sounds like it would be wise to use a chain shank over the nose so as to be able to get his attention, see Training: Training the Mind: Halter Training for details.
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 31, 2000 - 1:42 pm:

Hi Dr O, I have have owned him for about 20 months and he has always scented things by curling up the top lip. I thought it peculiar for a gelding to do it so often. This "belly slapping" has been going on very occasionally and as for the deep knickering (quite unlike a friendly knicker!) and deep sniffing this has happened once or twice, and only as a couple knickers, since I've had him and I have always passed it off. But this recent episode was very intentional on his part. He was standing quietly next to me and then started deep sniffing, then the deep knickering followed by knocking me with his front leg. I have seen this behaviour often when introducing horses and they often bring up a front leg. He is on no medications. It has also been suggested that geldings will pick up the scents of women during mensuration and this may be the cause, but it isn't. I need to know how to deal with it. I have told him to buggar off when he does it, but it is quite intimidating as he arches his neck and almost looks down on me when he does it. I left the paddock the other day as I actually felt too incomfortable. Yesterday, I put the halter on and did some Parelli games and he was pretty good and behaved like my good ole calm, relaxed, easygoing, friendly gelding. He was paying attention and did as he was asked. After we had finished I gave him a rub over and he started it again. I played around with him for awhile and found that he behaved in this way when I rubbed him - some stimulant. Another note...for the first time since I have had him I have been giving him big scratches (it is spring here in NZ and he is shedding his winter coat) and he loves these scratches. I wonder if this is simulating another horse and being female...he has got the wrong idea. I cannnot think of any other reason that he is doing this! How do I curb this behaviour? Thanks for any help.

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2000 - 7:36 am:

I see, so the stallion-like behavior has always been present but the striking is new. It sounds like it could be either aggression or an attention getting response: "hey you are suppose to scratch me now". Either way it needs discouragement, with the only difference being the degree of severity required to modify the behavior. I have an article on dealing with aggression in horses see, Training Horses: Behavioral Problems: Aggression in Horses.
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2000 - 8:49 am:

Hi there,
Horses do have erogenous zones and it's not unusual for a horse to experience some arousal when groomed in certain places. It is less usual for a horse (gelding or not) to engage in further sexual advances toward a human--ie the deep sniffing, nickers, etc. The knocking you with a foot is not aggressive; that's a conflict display which can be avoided by not allowing things to get to that point. In other words, do not allow him to deep sniff you in the first place, by either stepping away or doing something to discourage his having his nose on you.

The "belly slapping" behavior you described is a form of masturbation, but it's generally more self-comforting behavior than sexual. Horses will only do this in situations in which they feel relaxed; my stallion likes to do this while he eats dinner--the hedonist!

You might try grooming him while you've got him on a line, and if he becomes inappropriately aroused you could change gears by asking him to move some. Pay attention to which areas seem to get him stirred up, and try not to linger there for now. Punishment is not appropriate, as sexual arousal is not under his conscious control; true, a swat would temporarily distract him, but only because sex and threat are incompatible--not because he has "learned" from it.

Good luck.

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2000 - 12:46 pm:

We purchased a gelding last December and he will be 5 this spring. He is VERY friendly and a little overbearing at times, particularly to those who come to visit and are not used to being around horses. Anyway, late this summer I got into the habit of scratching him on his withers and along his back and he was "so cute" -- really liked it and thought I was really doing him a favour. NOW he expects it and the past month I have stopped completely (except with the grooming brush). He also nips at times, especially in the morning around feeding time when he is hungry and that is when he is the most aggressive. I yell at him and swat him in the belly and he moves away. The other morning, he raised his frong leg and I gave him a good shot in the gut and yelled "NO!" He does not seem to be this way towards my husband (although he is less of a disciplinarian with him than I am) but the woman thing may be a factor. He really is a sweetheart - very friendly - but aggressive at times and may be he is sexually frustrated !!! The important thing, I think, is to always make sure he knows you are the boss (by the way none of this behaviour occurs when he is haltered/bridled. He is still like a young teenager with lots of energy and likes to play (drives my mare crazy). The mistake I made was playing with him like a dog or smaller animal and now I am having to back-track and get him to respect me more. It is a continuous learning experience with these wonderful creatures!

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2000 - 1:37 pm:

Hi, thanks for replies. I ignored him today. Walked past him in his paddock, didn't "visit him", and didn't talk to him or even make eye contact. This is based on the theory that a herd will oust the misbehaving member from the group and will be ignored until the bahaviour improves. In addition, I only handled him with a halter on and continued to work him on the ground. When finished I removed the halter and walked away, without a pat or chat. What a change in behaviour! As he is a lone horse, I (and the cat) am his only companion. He always enjoys seeing me come home. He has recognised the sound of my vehicle and will typically be waiting at the gate for me and will always call out a big hello. He's my mate. Odd times, when he has misbehaved (other things) I have sent him out to another paddock and closed the gate behind him. He has always got upset about this and usually 10-15 minutes of this was enough to sort him out. It has always worked, he behaves as if he was very sorry. So you can imagine how an afternoon of it made him feel! He tried nothing and behaved like my good ole mate. I am going to continue this to some degree, however not quite as extensive as yesterday - it was as hard on me to walk away from him as it was for him, esp when he was acting like his good ole self. He was calling out at me continuously to go and see him and he wouldn't graze for long as he would be back at the gate waiting for me. So it was tough for both of us I think. I will continue with this to a degree until I am confident he has realised this behaviour is not tolerated or accepted. He is not going to get any scratches again, as well. Thanks for the info too guys, it has helped to understand this behaviour! Cheers.

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2000 - 3:11 pm:

Hello Sandy (?)

I'm glad things seem to be going better, but I did want to say after reading your update, that I hope you don't feel you have to withold affection or scratches from your guy. That would be a very sad existence for both of you, but especially for him since he has no other companions. Horses are normally very gregarious and very tactile.

As for ignoring him today as punishment for behavior he exhibited yesterday, I can see your line of reasoning, but there really isn't any way for him to connect the two things. You mentioned that after you'd had a nice session working with him, you "removed the halter and walked away, without a pat or chat"... I kind of wondered why that was; it's perfectly okay to reward him with rubs or scratches or chat when he's being his "good ole self". In fact, it will help him know that that's what you want. He won't have any way to know that your sudden detachment toward him has to do with how he behaved yesterday.

FWIW, just some stray thoughts on a rainy Wednesday.

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2000 - 4:43 pm:

Hi there
Just wondered if there was a way he could have a companion? If not a horse or pony how about a donkey? As I am sure you know horses are herd animals.
Barbara

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2000 - 5:02 pm:

Some more stray thoughts on a rainy Wednesday the other side of the world !

I also thought he should have a companion - if he only has you and a cat, he is a lonely chap and that is probably one of the reasons for his fixation on you.

And he will never think of you as another horse - horses are much cleverer than that. I go along with Mark Rashid's thinking that horses have realised that humans are the dominant, pretty unpleasant species on the planet so they have to make a plan to get on with us ... ... I believe they certainly understand us better than we understand them. But I doubt he would have understood why his big friend is suddenly being so cool towards him.

Horses so need affection and attention from us when they are living out of their normal herd situation and we are their main companions. So I hope you forgive him soon and give him the attention he obviously craves - and hopefully another equine friend soon !

Cheers.

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2000 - 8:15 pm:

Hi guys. I think I need to explain...I mean that I will not give him those big all-over body scratches while he is shedding his winter coat, as I was doing. I couldn't not pat him - he and I both thoroughly enjoy our quiet times, petting and chatting! But it seems that at the moment to touch him anywhere sets him off. I went home at lunch time (to see him...worried about him) and went and stood by the gate with him. He was fine to pat around the head, but to touch him anywhere else set him off deep knickering etc. I immediately asked him to leave my space, and he did. He's obviously not feeling himself...yes, wanting my companionship and attention but not respecting me enough to not display this behaviour. What is he trying to communicate with me? Believe me, I miss him and have a lump in my throat at the moment, in part, in dispair for our friendship and also because something is going on with him and I am unable to help. I would LOVE to have another horse, but I only have 1 3/4 acres for him already and definately not enough for two horses or even a goat or sheep (the landlord would not be impressed at all). I am not keen about grazing him out. I have many friends do this and they all appear to have pretty detached friendships with their horses. Most of the time they haven't enough time (with work, family, other commitments) to visit the horse regularly and give the attention they need, let alone go riding. Maybe not committed enough. I'm sorry if this sounds like an excuse, but I have seriously considered this and actually found some grazing about 25 minutes away with one other horse. I chose not to, for several reasons. As for missing other horses, I have had him out many times and he shows surprisingly very little interest. He will say hello with no fuss then eat grass. His attention is on me most of the time acttually. So, I am still back at square one. I figure I will continue to send him away from me and ignore him when he dispays these behavious with me. And when he is his old self, I will treat him as my mate. He has to know that I wont tolerate this behaviour, and will exclude him from the herd when he does this. When he behaves, he is welcomed back and given all the attention he deserves (and prob more!). I hope I don't come across sounding mean or cold, b'cos in many ways I'm prob too soft with him and prob too much of mate rather than "lead mare", "boss" etc. I think I do need to be clearer in my communication with him, deliberate and appropriately timed action is necessary. I take your advice about not patting him for being good yesterday, but I will add, that I was patting and telling him he was a good boy, while doing the work so it wasn't cold and silent. I have decided that this is prob the 'kindest', most easily-understood concept to deter his behaviour. Does this sound fair? And do keep in mind, when he misbahaves like this, it is very scary because he is so big and forceful about it. It is not a nice feeling from my perspective, and infact upsetting that HE treats ME like that! I feel I am treating him as generously as possible - showing him who is boss and asking him to leave. He is quite a sensitive horse (usually) so to start hitting him will really damage our friendship I think, because he doesn't understand it at all. However, I know he understands what it means to be sent away. Ok, thats prob more than enough for now! Thanks for your input - I appreciate getting the different perspectives. Cheers.
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