|
|
Discussion on High head against bit contact
|
| Author |
Message |
Member:
Dtranch
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 11:33 am:
I am currently training a 4yo paint filly that has done well through all ground work, lunging, etc. I started backing with a side pull and then on to full cheek snaffle.
She wants to carry her head extremely high whenever any contact is made, and pushes nose out against the bit to where she is almost uncontrollable. I have checked all physical and no apparent problems, and she does same with the side pull (no bit).
I usually work with lots of giving to bit and DrOpping head using reins, which she will now do pretty good standing and at slow walk. Any time I increase speed of walk or trot, head comes up and we have to start all over. I will work the circles, get her to DrOp her head, and start again. This has always worked in the past in just a few sessions, but this little filly just seems to "want" to fight it. she is getting better, but is a long way from where she needs to be. Any tips greatly appreciated.
DT
|
New Member:
Mzollars
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 12:45 pm:
Hi Dennis. Very new to HA so I haven't posted much, but I do have a 5 year old paint mare that did basically the same thing. I'm not sure what you are using her for, but I found that a head setter worked wonders for her. Just the pressure on her nose and poll when fighting the bit was enough to make her get the message that when she fights, it only makes it worse. Pressure on the bit for her meant pressure on her nose and poll as well, and eventually she decided to take the lesser of the two evils.
|
Member:
Kthorse
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 1:07 pm:
Does she do it only when you take contact with both reins at the faster pace.
If yes, I think I would only use one rein with her until she was better at side yeilding especially at a faster pace. I dont think I would use two reins on her until she is able to go faster without getting upset
Or do surpentines 1/2 circle to the left 1/2 to the right small half circles until she keeps her head level and does not raise it. Though you have probably done all this stuff. I was just thinking out loud.
|
Member:
Dove2
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 1:09 pm:
I presume when you say you checked all physical, it included dental as well as back and withers. If your equine dentists are anything like ours in this area, you might want to get a second opinion on the dental. I can tell you are an experienced trainer. How long have you been flexing this filly? My 4 y.o. Paint is just plain head-strong so we have to do double the amount of lateral flexing than even my daughter's 4 y.o. Paint filly needs. I now flex every chance i get: when haltering, when unhaltering, upon mounting, etc. He's great at flexing on the ground with the rope halter (I use the one with extra knots on the nose), but he's still very resistant when bitted. What took two days for our Paint filly is taking two months for my Paint gelding. He just doesn't want to give up control. My rationale for myself is just to take the time to keep at it. He's just going to take a long time. Sounds like your filly might have a bit of that stubborn streak too. I have never found any good short-cuts in training horses.
|
Member:
Ajudson1
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 2:07 pm:
Dennis,
My 17 yr old Arab mare will still put her nose to the air if I am not very conscious of what my hand and body is doing. Lots, and lots of flexing to the side, til she just holds her head there and I have to use the other rein to get her to give to other side. Then lots and lots of DrOpping her head at a stand still, then walk, using the 3 step approach of one rein, then the other, then held til she DrOps her head.
At the trot, I make sure I sit (she is still chargeing as I post, so I think that is my problem more than hers)I mean really sit on her back. I peddle my feet to move with her, and sometimes lean back and place my hand on her rump. As she slows down, I then work on her nose coming down. I have to be very, very aware of how I am sitting because she speeds up and the head goes up with the speed.
Same with canter.
Lots of circles to keep speed down helped mine.
Don't know if this is your case, but she may be sticking her nose up if the saddle is too long on her back, digging into her rump area. That was part of our problem here. (?)
|
Member:
Dtranch
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 2:11 pm:
Megan .. never used a headsetter, but I do have a rubberized training fork I rarely use but am considering. I'll look into it.
Katrina .. these are exactly the methods I generally use with great success, it's probably just gonna' take a lot longer with this filly.
Dove .. yes, Dental check as well. I incorporate the flexing and other ground work exercises before every ride. She is a little stubborn on the lateral flex as well, especially to the right. May circle several times before stopping to flex. Same in the saddle with one rein stop.
I am reading this all as "stubborn" right now and just not wanting to give in. I am training her 4yo half sister at the same time and she is doing great in all areas. Oh well, that's what keeps it interesting eh.
Thanks for all your input and I will consider all suggestions.
DT
|
Member:
Ajudson1
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 2:14 pm:
Dennis,
BTW, I could not accomplish this with a 3 part snaffle, or regular snaffle. I went to a kimberwickie so I had a little curb bite there. But I think that may be just because I am dealing with an older horse. Now that I am thinking about this, I may go back to a snaffle and see where we are.
I think Dove2 has it correct; this horse probably needs tons more lateral flexing than most horses. You may need to do circles til you feel like you just stepped off a heckova amusement park ride!!! At least that is how I felt some days.
|
Member:
Ajudson1
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 2:17 pm:
I would use a regular running martingale before the rubber fork myself. That "boing" affect seems to be counter productive IMHO.
|
Member:
Sunny66
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 2:21 pm:
My inexperienced two cents...bute her, ride her and see if she stops 
|
Member:
Christos
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 2:31 pm:
I would try her bareback, Dennis.
Some horses simply can not handle the saddle and the bit at the same time in their first steps.
Also check the saddle for the odd lump or nail sticking through the stuffing when pressure is applied.
|
New Member:
Mzollars
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 3:20 pm:
Dennis, The headsetter and the german martingale are becoming favorite training aids for some of us cutters and reiners. You can purchase both of these along with other training aids from Larry Trocha's website www.horsetrainingvideos.com. I really like his techniques and would highly reccomend them. I use a german martingale with my 7 year old Hollywood 86 mare, as she tends to be a little high. She works fantastic in it!!
|
Member:
Kthorse
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 3:59 pm:
I personaly hate martingales etc because I think the horse learns to depend on them and its a quick fix. It doesnt teach the horse to lower his head. But a big but if the horse was carrying his head dangerously high so that you lose all control and would be in danger riding this horse I would use it temporarily. But I dont think thats the case with you Dennis you have already done the ground work and know what you are doing. Sorry to all the people who like them I dont want to offend anyone.
|
Member:
Alden
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 11, 2006 - 4:03 pm:
Sounds to me Dennis you're on the right track, it just takes some longer than others.
I'd like to take this moment to caution folk about using the "headsetter" or any device like it. Not that I don't like it, I do and I use a similar setup with an old piece of hard twist rope (much cheaper). My word of caution is probably addressed on the free DVD that can be ordered with the equipment.
A device like this can cause a horse to rear and/or flip clear over. So go slow from the ground and be sure the horse will move forward easily before using.
Good day,
Alden
|
Member:
Dtranch
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 13, 2006 - 8:56 am:
Thanks all for your input.
Christos .. bareback riding had same results which may confirm my "defiance" aspect. I have been continuing same workout .. flexes, circles and serpentines, etc. First half of workout with training fork then last half without. Last nights session with no training aids and she is progressing nicely now. I may even need to work on bringing head up a little at the walk in the future. I think this just re-affirms what we all already know, the 3 most important keys to training are Patience, Patience, and Patience.
Thanks again all ...
DT
|
Member:
Dtranch
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 13, 2006 - 9:21 am:
Probably should mention here, that I have worked 2 sessions daily for last 2 days ... previous workouts only once daily.
DT
|
Member:
Christos
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 13, 2006 - 10:17 am:
Let's not forget the fourth most important key, a stubborn horse here and there, just to test and shape up the first three important keys.
Glad she's coming along.
|
Member:
Ajudson1
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 13, 2006 - 12:12 pm:
Good!!
Along with the 3 P's, the stubborn horse to test us, let me add "change something". I have a habit of getting stuck on "arena" work, so I may change saddles, use the bareback pad (the non slip one) or go someplace new.
If she starts this again, I'd go mosey out in the woods or fields. As long as I can pull a horses head around, I feel pretty safe out in the open.
|
Member:
Kthorse
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 13, 2006 - 6:04 pm:
That was quick Dennis. Great news
|
Member:
Dove2
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 13, 2006 - 8:18 pm:
I wasn't going to post this because I was afraid of being thought of as a kook, but I can't restrain myself from mentioning it, in case there are others out there who believe the same way I do.
I think it's safe to say we all agree horses have personalities, and there are many different personalities. A lot of horses fall in the category of "show me and I'll be happy to do it for you." Some fall in the category of "Duhhh." My horse falls into the category of "You can't do that to me. I have my pride, you know." I sometimes call it stubborn, but it really isn't stubborn. He's very smart.....sometimes like a fox. But since your post, I've tried several experiments to test my theory that my horse has so much pride and self-esteem that he does not wish to be told what to do or made to do anything. For example, in lateral flexing on a rope halter, he'll give me five quick flexes - on his own! - as if to say, "Here, here's what you want. Now leave me alone."
OK, so in my experiments, rather than pulling him around with a normal touch, I gently suggest as to what I want (ask) and he does it. And he does it much nicer. So when I rode him yesterday, trying to eliminate his head tossing when he decides he's done for the day, or rooting his nose to the ground, I decided to not touch his mouth at all. I just did a "passenger lesson" at the walk and trot - on the buckle - and not once did I get a negative reaction, even past his tolerance zone. He did some other antics, however, like tried to stop in the corners (where I sometimes rest him), or go up too close to the fence and try to scrape my leg off, or squeeze inbetween a two foot opening between the fence and the mounting block my daughter was sitting on. But all in all, he behaved admirably in doing what I wanted.
I guess what I'm trying to say, is that he has a lot of pride and wants to be treated with respect. I can slap him with the end of my mecate all day long as hard as I can and he won't budge. But if I gently touch him, he'll move. The gentler I handle him, the more he gives me.
You might say this applies to all horses, but I don't think it necessarily does. My daughter's horse wants very much to please so she gives willingly. When she does test, one good reprimand will get her respect back in a minute. But my Paint gelding, and I have to think your Paint filly too, are requesting a totally different approach than many horses. They are the type of horse that respond to tons of praise, and an authoritative but gentle hand; especially in training. I think they are very much more sensitive in most areas, prefer little to no rein contact and therefore are very responsive to seat and leg aids. Since I started _ requesting_ a lateral bend when saddled, my gelding has started to get much softer than when I pulled his head around, waiting for him to incrementally soften. Perhaps your filly would find the answer by your trotting her for as long as it takes - wherever she wants to go - and resting her when her head remains in a relaxed position. No influence from the human at all through the reins.
Anyway, I just thought I might suggest this as an experiment for your filly: to see if she responds better with a much lighter touch. (Please understand I'm not assuming you're heavy handed at all. I do assume you use just a normal touch, one that you'd use on a "regular" horse.)
I'm so glad to see she's doing better already though. How long are each of the two sessions per day vs. how long was the one/day session?
|
Member:
Ajudson1
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 13, 2006 - 8:53 pm:
Dove2,
Nothing kooky about your post. Makes tons of sense to me.
I am having trouble with my Paint gelding now in the arena. He just wants to do a few things, a few laps, then he heads to the gate! He will even park himself in such a way so I can open it! (it's a Horse Guard fence, so I just unhook it and throw it)
He isn't trained 100% yet so I am trying to "perfect" gaits, turns, stops, softness, etc. But today we just went out on a ride and he was the most energetic horse I've ever been on LEAVING the yard. He wasn't barn sour at all.
Guess in his mind he figures he knows enough of the boring stuff, lets get out of Dodge!
Another young one I am working with, does her review lessons well, then gives me a look like "Really, can we call it a day already?"
Wonder if Dennis thinks this horse he's training is smart as a fox?
|
Member:
Kthorse
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 13, 2006 - 9:20 pm:
Dove 2 You don't sound like a kook . I think Dennis has nailed it on the head and solved his problem ,but what you are saying I totally agree with it works wonderfully with some horses mine for example. I actually think it would work for all but don't know that so cant say for sure. What you said you did for an experiment is how I ride now, a total change from my dressage times. I get a lot of funny looks from the dressage riders I ride with but none of them has horses that can do what mine does, so I don't care any more. I ride on the buckle at all gaits in between contact sessions. When I flex him to the side he will stay there with no rein contact until I tell him its OK to put his head back. He is so soft that each time I ride I get blown away. Though I will say this was a process that took a while. I can canter in a perfect circle with no reins etc. Gallop after my friends with no contact know I sound like I am bragging ( I am) cant help it. but all my years of riding I have never dreamed of having a horse this perfect. I am so thrilled and proud of him I have to tell the world. My friends who I have ridden with since I first got him all want me to ride there horses thinking that I will make them like mine as they remember him the pulling bucking bronco who spooked at everything . But they don't wont to put all the hours and work into it. One girl friend her horse would not stand to get on, it took me all of 5 minutes to get him to stand while I mounted , but would she take the 5 minutes no so he is back to square one. Some horses like you said need more down time to relax and absorb what is being taught to them. I really have to stop talking about how good my horse is but I cant. You must all think I am a show off, I love my horse so much I have to tell everyone of his accomplishments. One day soon we will probably develop some problems and I know this site will help. It always does. Katrina
|
Member:
Kthorse
|
Posted on Thursday, Jul 13, 2006 - 9:26 pm:
I am so sorry for talking about my horse yet again. Sorry Dennis this is your post. I get carried away.
Forgive me.
Katrina
|
Member:
Christos
|
Posted on Friday, Jul 14, 2006 - 8:22 am:
You don't sound cuckoo at all, Dove2. My trainer called this type of horse "ambassador". He said much like an ambassador, it is in their nature to become obstinate if you're not too polite, even when they know damn well that what you're asking is good for them.
|
Member:
Dove2
|
Posted on Friday, Jul 14, 2006 - 11:46 am:
Thanks, guys. I appreciate your kind words. I especially like the "ambassador" title. So true! Katrina, I for one really enjoy hearing of your success and how far you've come with your horse. At the risk of sounding too solicitous, I find Anderson's methodology to work not only on the horse's physical, but mental attitude as well. (I believe you, too, are a follower of his.) The other eye-opener I had was how responsive horses are to your trust. Until I really trust my horse, I don't get the responses I want.
Dennis, I really am glad you posted your issue here. Your questions really inspire me to better understand what I need to do. It makes me, a lay person, feel much better about my experiences with my horse, especially when he's being a jerk. I would really like to hear more about how you work and train a green horse.
|
Member:
Dawson
|
Posted on Friday, Jul 14, 2006 - 2:17 pm:
Hi Dennis; With one of my saddlebreds, he has difficulty processing information the way a normal horse does. Somethings it takes him twice as long, on others like the grooming brush we will probably always see the whites of his eyes.
First I ask consistently, practice practice practice, requires patience, patience, patience. How slow do I go, however slow it takes the horse.
This gelding was raising his head either because he wasn't catching on or in conflict with me.(He was not people friendly when I got him)
One afternoon I threw in the towel he listened to nothing I asked, it was hot so I just DrOpped the saddle and rode him into the lake.
That did it for him. We rode out and he DrOpped his head all the way home. My point I didn't know it but I was not making the lesson worth while for him to learn. We no longer live in the area of the lake, so I can't use that lesson again, but he still wants to please me. Go figure?
It was n't the horse who didn't have a handle on things it was me.
|
Member:
Dtranch
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 17, 2006 - 8:46 am:
Dove ... Kooky, I hope not. I used the "passenger" technique you referred to in the previous week to let the horse find herself. As I mentioned earlier, she settles nicely when I stay off the reins totally. The nice thing about this is that I spent much of the time developing leg and seat cues as we worked. I didn't care where she went as we explored the arena letting her build confidence. And, you're right on about the personalities. That is what makes training so enjoyable to me, learning to recognize and understand the different personalities, and learning what works for one vs. the other. Angie .. yep, I think this filly is very smart, she is teaching me a lot...
Katrina .. the horse you describe is the horse we are all striving to develop. Congrats on a job well done, you obviously have a great partner there. My goal with each horse I train is to be able to stay "out of the mouth" as we ride. I spend hours on trail work just trying to negotiate trails with leg and seat .. not only rewarding, but a lot of fun as well.
DT
|
Member:
Dtranch
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 17, 2006 - 8:53 am:
Dawson .. you make a great point here we all need to remember. We talk practice, practice, practice, etc. but we need to keep the horse in mind and make it enjoyable for the horse as well. We can get caught up in being the "trainer" and forget about the "horse".I learned long ago to constantly vary my sessions and find ways to let the horse have fun while he learns. Perhaps, the little swim did the trick (for both of you). Sometimes, the best training session is a long ride in the woods thinking about nothing but enjoying each others company.
DT
|
Member:
Dove2
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 17, 2006 - 10:20 am:
Dennis,
Thanks for the support. Actually, after I did the passenger lesson, my precious horse decided he really liked being let alone and to go wherever he wanted. Now, he tries to do that more than ever and prefers that to listening to leg. He's started this head shaking thing in earnest now. I guess it's a way of rebelling. What should I do? I'm keeping him from putting his head to the ground, like Christos suggested, by squeezing him forward. When he starts shaking his head around, I just lateral flex him to a stop(he's great laterally flexing in the rope halter, but hates it with a bit in his mouth).
We went to a new arena for the first time in several months and he wasn't spooky, but he was very fast at the trot - couldn't get a decent jog out of him - and he kept doing this head shaking thing. Any insights and suggestions?
|
Member:
Dtranch
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 17, 2006 - 11:19 am:
Dove ... that is why I used the "passenger" lessons as a setup to going back to bit work, not as a substitute for. When left totally on his own, his focus will naturally wander somewhere else, so you must keep his attention.
For the problem you now describe, I like to set cones in approx a 20 to 30 foot square. I start working at the trot in this "squared" circle and the horses pace slows dramatically when focussing on the exercise as he must slow some to make the turns. I will then do figure 8's between the corners of the square focussing on maintaining a good working trot throughout. Rotate between figure 8's and circles and whatever other patterns you want to dream up. The more your horse focusses on the work, the less he thinks about head shaking, etc.
The filly I am working with is now loping fairly well on the larger circle and just starting the smaller circles. As with all this training stuff, it is one brick at a time. She hasn't forgotten the bit, but it now seems to be much less of an issue to her. She is focussing on something else, and I think she actually enjoys the work.
DT
|
Member:
Dove2
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 17, 2006 - 2:47 pm:
Those sound like great exercises. When you say you start working at a trot in the squared circle, are you actually doing circles first? Then move to the figure 8's? I like the set-up, since it offers some variation in where he goes. I find I get too boring for my horse sometimes, and he seems to need much more pattern variation.
So you're loping your filly now! Great. Was she unbalanced at the lope? This is about where my 4 year old is. He's just started to be able to canter with a rider, but he'll still occasionally do this hard rocking horse movement initially. Have you had to deal with something like that? How did you resolve or smooth out your filly's canter/lope? Are you still working her twice a day?
|
Member:
Dtranch
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 17, 2006 - 3:18 pm:
Dove ..
Back to working once a day ... vacation over so gotta' work for a living unfortunately.
I usually start with the circle then move on to other patterns then back to circles. I'll also put cones between the corners so I can weave them down the sides and sometimes a couple in the middle to play with. The key is to vary it regularly to avoid boredom, but it also gets the horse used to moving all legs in all directions and helps establish balance. This is the primary exercise I use to slow, smooth, and balance the lope.
Yes, she was very shaky and excitable when beginning to canter but after a few of the larger circles, she started to find herself and settle in.
One added reward to this exercise is that your riding will improve greatly as you develop your balance and rhythm as well.
DT
|
Member:
Dove2
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 17, 2006 - 6:38 pm:
Thanks, DT. Two more questions: when you train, do you post or ride the sitting trot? When your filly raised her head (after the passenger lesson), did you just ride through it and leave her head alone or did you play with the rein to try to bring it down?
|
Member:
Dtranch
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 17, 2006 - 6:54 pm:
Dove .... I'm all western so I sit.
I ride with very low hands keeping enough slack so that no contact is made when head is in proper position. If she raises her head too much, she will feel the contact and is now DrOpping head back down instead of trying to push or pull through it. It is important to keep hands steady so that you are not pulling so that contact is only made when she makes it happen and release is immediate when she DrOps back down. I brace my hands against my thigh to hold steady. Hope this helps.
DT
|
Member:
Dove2
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 17, 2006 - 7:05 pm:
Yes, thanks, DT. You sound like an excellent trainer.
|
Member:
Ajudson1
|
Posted on Monday, Jul 17, 2006 - 10:52 pm:
Dennis,
Can I ask how big is your arena? You and Dove are both giving me insights here. My area is about 85' X 125' (only flat spot of ground I have)
I have 12 cones, I also put them in various arrangements; like a square in a square so I can choose different patterns.
I am working on the passenger riding on one horse who keeps going to the gate for one thing, and another thing is I feel the area is too small to canter. I think I am saying "go, no don't go".
Is the size arena I have a problem?
One of my other horses, she goes too fast and just ignores the cones, like no focus on them at anything other than the walk.
Following your program from the training schedule post, kinda overlapping the discussions here, hope you don't mind.
At any rate, this is challenging! But hey, never a dull moment.
Thanks
|
Member:
Dtranch
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2006 - 8:57 am:
Angie ... 85' X 125' is plenty large enough. Mine is about 70' X 120' but for these exercises, I only use about half the length ... about 60' X 60' used. After a few passes in the small area, I will drift back out to the rail and use the whole area for a while, then back in to workout.
As far as being too small to canter, I start cantering in a 50' round pen with no problem. You make a good point though .. you think the area is too small, so you are giving your horse mixed signals. When I first ask for canter, it is important to let the horse go with no "checking" up. You have to let the horse find itself in the canter and stay out of his way. This can be kind of "nervy" the first few times, but that is why I use the 50' pen .. I know the horse is not going to run off with me, so I just kind of do the "passenger" thing here as well for a while. The quality and speed of the canter is not important at this point .. you just need to let the horse find his balance under you. Once you go to the drills we previously discussed is when you can start refining.
DT
|
Member:
Ajudson1
|
Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2006 - 11:22 pm:
Thanks Dennis,
I had a post here, and being half asleep I closed it before posting it.
Anyhow, I see what I need to work on here, and tonight went better. Did things S-L-O-W-E-R with my "gate crasher". Realised I am not with the program (watching C.A.'s Riding with Confidence tapes) as in doing too many things with a very sensitive but confused horse.
So the horse is right, human error is high. But I am still having fun! If it quits being fun I'll send the whole herd to you for training!!
|
|
|
