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Discussion on Foal imprinting: blessing or curse?
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2006 - 6:18 pm:
Okay all you experienced horse people out there, what is your opinion on foal imprinting? I am talking about long-term here, for the entire life of the horse, not just foal handling.
I read a lot about it and decided to do it with Cleo, my homebred filly. At three she is very relaxed with me and very trusting. I consider it a success.
The trainer I have hired in the past, however, says he prefers to work with horses that have never been touched--not literally, but he would prefer to get a horse that has been handled very little prior to his contact.
He says there are many more respect issues with imprinted horses, and that they are less sensitive to motivators, i.e. leg cues, whip, etc.
He also says he believes that an imprinted horse sees humans as part of it's herd, therefore as just another horse to dominate on it's way to "Alpha" status.
Is he confusing "imprinted" with "spoiled"? (I am sure there are a certain amount of people guilty of confusing one with the other, as well as spoiling when they THINK they are imprinting...). Or is there some merit to his argument?
I have recently read that he is not alone in his opinion, and that the pendulum is starting to swing away from imprinting for the reasons he cited.
Would love to hear some opinions from those of you on both sides of the fence.
Erika
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Member:
Christel
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2006 - 7:18 pm:
Erika, good subject. I think anything can be taken too far- moderation in all things.
The first time I see my foals, I do the imprinting thing, and then give them their shots, dip cord, etc., then I baciscally leave them alone, with occasional petting, little stuff. I do halter them when we go to repro vet for dams exams. I halter in the trailer where they are easy to catch. I let foal follow mom and don't ask for much out of them.
I have found I never really 'have the foal' until after weaning. They couldn't care less about me as long as mom is around, its afterward they are weaned we get to be buddies.
I like to pretty much leave em alone, I do tie them up several times before weaning and then get serious about it after weaning- I feel it is easier on them w/ mom there the first few times.
Foals that I have had to doctor on a daily basis while still on mom, tend to get back to normal a few weeks after I am not messing with them daily- they are not as friendly per say.
I like to let foals learn to be horses first, although I do demand respect out of them, as in no kicking or biting etc..
I think people can do a little too much imprinting, and the foals just become lap dogs.
Chris
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2006 - 8:30 pm:
We never imprinted the foals. They also were basically left alone with the herd to learn discipline from the other mares and Stallion and were brought in and halter broke at weaning time. Never had a problem. so I cant comment on imprinting whether it is better or not .A few foals that the mare would not let the foal nurse and a few preemies were handled a lot at birth then left alone they seemed no different maybe a little cheekier but not much
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2006 - 9:33 pm:
"Lap dog", "cheekier", now that is the kind of stuff I hear about imprinted horses. In fact, mine did go through a phase where I had to warn my sons not to go into the pasture alone because Cleo was MUCH more interested in humans than her pasturemates.
Chris, I thought the first 24 hours was imprinting--even if you leave them alone after?
As far as training when they are older, do you find any difference between an imprinted and non imprinted horse?
Erika
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Member:
Christel
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2006 - 10:11 pm:
Erika, when I said imprinting 'too much' I basically meant, it is carried on and on, daily, for an extended period- suppose that is really not imprinting in the true definition.
Actually what I do may not be true imprinting anyhow. I touch them everywhere rather quickly then get on with the navel dip etc.. I try not to be too much a part of their lives- unless of course they require me to, in case of injury or something of that nature.
IMO- if the foal is really truly imprinted at birth then left alone till weaning or later I don't think one would see much difference in them when it did come time to halter break etc..
I dont think imprinting is a mandatory thing to have a nice gentle easy to train horse- sorry, I got so long winded in answering that simple question.
Chris
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 30, 2006 - 10:28 pm:
My best experience with imprinting was seeing one of our foals born and I got impatient and took the sack off his nose before he broke it himself. He was a sweet heart the 4 years he was in my life. He was also 100% horse, and his momma did a fantastic job teaching him his manners. I don't think because he smelled me first, and then I touched him all over, that it spoiled him or ruined him.
But maybe that was just this one horse.
I did have another foal that wasn't so much imprinted but was raised as an orphan. He also was 100% horse, just knew his milk came from a bucket.
I think, IMO, imprinting is good if done right away just for the basic touching the horse all over. But I don't think you need to run clippers on the ears, or whatever all the stuff is.
It's just being friends with you foal, and then remembering he is a HORSE. And keeping the respect thing going from then on.
BTW, both of these horses, I only kept til they were green broke. One was easy to train, the other wasn't. I don't think the imprinting had anything to do with the difference. I think the difference was I had a baby a week after the second foal was born...ya think that might have mattered???
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 6:26 am:
We have an article on imprinting that contains a evaluation of the procedure by someone who has observed its effects in dozens of different situations given at the last AAEP meeting. You will find it at, Equine Reproduction » Pregnancy, Foaling, & Neonatal Care » Imprinting the Newborn Foal.
DrO
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 9:33 am:
Erika,
I agree with your trainer, in my experience a horse that's had very little handling is easier to start. I think that is mostly due to not having mistakes to un-train, than a imprinting or not issue.
I don't give imprinting much credit, if it was that easy to influence a horse's nature then I'd have two here that should be very afraid, but they are not. Both were handled very rough as foals and were very afraid when I got them as two year olds, now they are the first to be in your pocket and I can do anything with them.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 1:47 pm:
i agree with the people who dont like to imprint... i DONT want a horse to think i'm his best buddy, and imprinting has tendency to do this... horses that think they can crawl in your pocket or hang out and lean on you have some big respect issues.... i find that horses that have been imprinted are more likely to do this... i'm quite happy to work with horses that have never even had a halter on them... they really are the easiest...
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 3:08 pm:
Well, at the risk of bragging on youngsters who may end up in a "My Two-Year-Old Is A Juvenile Delinquent" posting, I have to say we do handle our foals a lot. Even though it is a business, it wouldn't be worth it if we couldn't enjoy the foals. That includes rubbing your hands all over their body, picking up feet, rinsing off, hugging, scratching and so forth.
Our suckling was rinsed off at two days old and now all you have to do is drag a hose to the pasture and she is the first in line. She was our only foal this year and got spoiled pretty quickly. But recognizing a potential problem we started setting boundaries of acceptable behavior and she is fine now. She is very sensitive to tone of voice.
The two yearlings we have came to us at two weeks of age. We handled both extensively they are very easy to work with now including come when you call, shots, bathing, fly spray, farrier etc.
We got in a yearling colt to sales prep who was not handled and he is rank. But when he was handled his owners didn't know what to do with him. So I think he is more a product of ignorant owners than typical of a horse that wasn't handled.
The main thing I have seen in my own experience between foals handled and those who weren't is trust. It takes a lot longer to develop trust with those who weren't handled. But maybe that is just my own experience.
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 3:19 pm:
I was there the day my mini was born. And the owner couldn't care less about the process of imprinting, so i did the imprinting. At the time i had no clue i was going to buy her. I was just there helping out the owner. and thought what could it hurt.
I did all that the books tell you to do.
Now jump 4 months forward. and i have to say her weaning and moving here was seamless. She might have seen me once in the 4 months prior to her coming home, but she is SO trusting of me. I can do anything to her and she lets me. She will go anywhere, and follow me in every way.
SO is this maybe because of my imprinting her? I think it is. I know she wasn't that way with the owner. She haltered her and the foal was just ballistic. 2 hours later at my house and she was leading, haltering, picking up her feet, etc..
maybe its only bond related. But it takes only minutes to explain and she complies...
Maybe its not the imprinting idea so much in general, as its the person that does the imprinting that they respect. and i'm not saying i'm good so the horse is good. But because i was the first thing she saw as a baby before she got her first suckling that maybe its that first person they see....and therefore why people that imprint believe it works. they just have the idea wrong. So its the person, not the process.
So i think its helped immensely for me in this regard. But who knows for sure, huh?
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 5:00 pm:
Very interesting to hear all of your experiences. I went back to read Dr. O's article on imprinting, as well as the threads about it.
Mark Rashid had some interesting things to say about the desensitizing to rider cues. My filly, interestingly enough, does not always move out from my leg--she's just learning--but I wonder if that is part of the reason. She just doesn't react much to the leg pressure.
Anyone else find that to be an issue?
Erika
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 5:34 pm:
Erika I find the issue of being less sensitive to leg cues interesting. I would never have thought of that.
.
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Monday, Jul 31, 2006 - 6:48 pm:
Very interesting input on this! I can honestly say I've yet to meet a horse that was imprinted that didn't have some type of issue.
The worst example: My girlfriend had bought a saddlebred colt from a breeder that heavily imprinted all of her foals. That horse tried to kill people..I'm not exagerating. I had seen him pin people up against walls and start kicking, go after his owner with his teeth bared, pin ears at anybody for no reason, try to attack people entering his stall, all before he even hit a year old. She ended up selling him to a guy who broke him to cart only because he said he was too dangerous to ride (he was gelded before my friend bought him).
In my own experiences, I bought my first yearling straight out of the field, untouched, and she was never a problem for anything, from ground work all the way to saddle training. My baby horse (who is son of first yearling), who's now a yearling, was handled alot after 8 days old (never offically "imprinted", just handled daily) and is exhibting behavior that his mother never would have considered! I think my two are a good discussion for nature vs. nurture.
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Member:
Aannk
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 2:16 pm:
My experience is limited, but my gelding (whom I lost last year) was always a bit spooky until I realized he needed me to guide him every step. I imprint trained him. He also loved people and did have to be taught not to treat us like horses at about age 2 or so. AFter that, he still liked to be with people, but didn't try to nibble so much. One thing I have to mention is that he acted different from most horses and most folks don't know how to handle that. He never cared about what other horses were doing.
My new gelding was left in the herd until right before I bought him with minimal handling. He has required three months of training to get to where he will allow me to pull his mane and still way perfers to be with horses.
I am not saying this was as a result of his trainig, but those are my two experiences.
I plan on handling my baby that is coming next year, but am not sure how much or when right at this moment.
Alicia
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Member:
Karent
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 8:15 pm:
I have imprinted all my foals, and have had nothing but good luck. I don't go to the extent of clippers, but do rub them all over, mess with mouth, ears, legs, etc. I also have my farrier come out and either rasp or trim their feet as necessary when they are 6-8 weeks old, then every 8 weeks after that.
I handle them daily, with halter, leading, picking up and cleaning out their feet. I also sack them out, starting with Mom and then moving to baby.
All my foals have grown up knowing their space, have respect for humans and aren't spoiled.
If you have time to work with them and the patience to do it right, I truly believe imprinting can be a positive reward for both you and your horse.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 1, 2006 - 8:59 pm:
One funny thing I have noticed with the imprinted one: If I rub her favorite spots, she immediately starts to groom me back. Her upper lip does a number on my hair every time!
The others show their appreciation for the rubs, but they don't reciprocate like she does. They simply grunt and stretch, and do the usual stuff. Only Cleo gives me a hair mud pack.
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Member:
Irwin
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Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 2:55 pm:
I have to agree with Karen T. 100%. I think that there is a lot of confusion between “imprinting” and “spoiling”. I have raised 4 foals, and the last 3 were all imprinted. They understood from the very beginning that I was not their “friend”, but I was the “boss”, although a very friendly boss. All of my girls were leading and would stand for all those “scary” things like bathing, clippers, farriers, etc. They are all very responsive to cues and are very respectful of my space, yet I can love all over them if I want. The oldest mare, who was not imprinted, even after extensive training and handling, is not nearly as respectful and the other three. About the horse that was “heavily imprinted” and was a killer, I would suspect that there were events in his past which made him that way, whether it be from handling or a genetic thing, and that merely imprinting him was not the cause of the problem.
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 8, 2006 - 7:21 am:
Hi -
I agree imprinting done correctly isn't going to harm a horse or make them spoiled.
I don't do the whole sheh-bang but do like to have my foals comfortable around humans from the start.
I had a had a mare who's foals were born very shy. She herself was very friendly and not at all protective. I didn't force myself on these foals, but would spend a lot of quiet time in the stall letting them get used to my presence. That might seem backwards, but it worked for them. Their curiousity overcame their fear. They both are very well adjusted, friendly young horses.
Many of my horses will try to groom me back, even ones I didn't raise or imprint. But the one I imprinted the most is so funny. He will point with his nose and touch the places he wants me to scratch. He is very athletic about it. He can reach spots above his hip and can touch the middle of his back. He will also lift a hind leg and touch all sorts of places.
And he reciprocates with the best massage. Not too hard, but it feels very therapeutic. My family always ask if they can have a massage from him when they visit.
OK...sorry for the ramble... 
-B
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