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Discussion on Rushing Down Hills
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New Member:
Kjmleila
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Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 12:12 pm:
Hi,
My 5 year old Canadian mare is developing a bad habit of rushing down hills. Most the time she can stay in balance but at times it is very scary.
Last year I didn't have this problem. However, this past month I went on a 3 day horse trip that involved lots of large hills. At first she was walking down the hills but then she started trotting and even cantering down the hills. I've tried to make her slow down but I am not having any luck. I checked her back/saddle and all seems well. My horse is a smart one and when given an inch, she will take a mile. Any suggestions are appreciated.
KJM
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 12:31 pm:
Hi Karen,
Have you ever tried running downhill while carrying a child piggyback? It is very easy to go faster and faster, even if you don't mean to do it!
Do you have a good trainer that can help you learn how to half halt well? A good half halt will rebalance your horse onto her hindquarters which will help her not get so quick going down the hills. She could also still be very immature at 5 years old and just have a tough time balancing herself with a rider on board.
Be patient, give her time, and teach her to half halt using your back, seat and legs rather than hands alone so she has nothing to lean and pull against. Do this at home first where it is easy and then build up to small hills, working your way up to steeper hills. You can even go sideways, back and forth sideways in a zig zag pattern down the hills while she learns to rebalance.
Good luck!
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 1:10 pm:
Karen
I ditto Debbie's comments. I work on this half halt at home to where my horse understands just by my seat and legs. Then, as I start trail work, I will ask for this at the top of the hill before I start down. It is amazing how quickly your horse will learn to really plant that hind end down when negotiating the hill. One other point, make sure you are in position and not leaning forward and squeezing legs confusing your horse by setting up a "speed" position.
DT
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Member:
Lynnea
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Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 1:35 pm:
I think you gave her that inch and she took the mile!!!Once smart horses get away with one little thing they seem to carry it further and further. My daughter had a horse (still does)that she let eat a few things on the trail one day.....for ages she had to battle him grabbing bushes, leaves from trees, etc. She just started him all over again and eventually he stopped. She also had a horse she let run up a hill a few times........whenever he saw a hill, he took off to run up it. Goes to prove everything we do with horses is teaching. I totally agree with doing what is said above..excellent advice.
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 1:54 pm:
DT, For us neophytes, can you please explain how to get your horse to understand a half halt by just seat and legs? I'd love nothing better than to stay out of his mouth! Thanks.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 2:01 pm:
One thing you can do to make sure your balance is correct going down is too take your feet out of the stirrups long long legs, make sure your deep in the saddle and relax your hips to swing with the hind coming under. Don't ask me why the feet out works , I think it must help you to relax your hips more if your tense worrying about the horse going down fast then the tenseness will make it worse. It has always worked on horses for me with that problem if pain from saddle hitting shoulders has been ruled out.
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New Member:
Kjmleila
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Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 3:03 pm:
Thanks all for the replies. I am in the process of finding a trainer that is good and within my budget. What can I say about the elusive half halt? I think I'm doing it correctly, but I'm not seeing results on the down hill. Occasionally, I do see the effect of half halting on the straight. I once read that the half halt is just a "feeling" the rider has with their horse and that its difficult to actually teach how to do a good half halt. So...any suggestions are welcomed.
I also think Lynne is correct. My horse, Leila, takes advantage anytime she thinks she can get away with it. She is constantly testing me, fortunately I usually pass. This also stressed the need for me to get good trainer.
I also agree that I need to be patient and do more arena work for results on the trail. If only there were more hours in the day or I was independently wealthy.
KJM
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 3:08 pm:
Welcome to HA, Karen.
Old old cavalry tip for the pupils  :
Imagine you have a fragile vase full of water attached to the end of the reins. That vase is resting on a marble staircase. You want to lift the vase one step. You won't jerk it upwards, you won't let it DrOp. The movement will be smooth, circular, accelerating and decelerating slowly. That's how a half halt should feel in your hands.
It makes it easier for the horse if the movement is circular, ie your hands come down, back, up, forward, down in a very small, of course, barely perceivable circle. That's for a horse who moves with his head generally high. If he moves with a low head, the rotation is reversed. Again, this circle your hand scribes is very very small, barely noticeable.
As for the rest of your body, you just brace your back a tiny bit, put your upper body a tiny bit back, step a tiny bit more in the stirrups. All in a fashion to match the smoothness of lifting the vase.
Naturally, just as with the vase, your back will brace and your legs will step in the stirrups first, in preparation for lifting. Do not do this consciously, it's automatic timing, you need not interfere.
In time, the horse will learn to recognise that your stepping in the stirrup, bracing your back and leaning a bit back means that you're about to squeeze the reins. He will not wait for you to squeeze his mouth, even so gently, he will put his hind end under and rebalance before you act with your hands.
That's half halt without reins.
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New Member:
Kjmleila
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Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 3:46 pm:
Hi Christos,
I like your description, very visual. I am giving it a try tonight. Of course...it's all about coordinating all the aides. Sometimes riding seems a bit overwhelming. There is so much to remember. I'm lucky that my horse, although challenging, is forgiving. I have learned to focus on my body parts...parts that I hadn't given much thought to. The major problem I have when riding is a closed hip, arched back. I think this effects my ability to brace my back. I'm working on increasing my hip flexibility but it's like teaching an old dog new tricks.
KJM
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 6:12 pm:
Excellent description for the half halt. Its a great way to get the young horse to walk correctly down hills. That should really help you.
I have a couple of things to add. Correct me any one if you think this is wrong.
First have you checked the saddle doesn't slide on the shoulder going down hill? Even the best of horses will rush if in pain. I actually need a crupper because I ride steep hills than go on for 20 minutes or more. If not my saddle slides onto his shoulder an believe me he hates it.
If you are still working on the half halt and don't feel like you have masted it and still want to do downhill, You can stop him every few strides going down. This will help slow him down and re-balance him self also and you wont have to think as much as how to do it.
Another description of the half halt that is easy to understand is at least for me when I first started riding is
Bring you horse to a halt immediately use your legs to go forward. After you do this well go to do the downward transition (Don't stop this time) as soon as you feel the horse start to stop push him forward. As you get better the time in between these movements becomes extremely quick. you will only see the re-balance of the horse.
Katrina
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 6:22 pm:
Oh I forgot to mention as you get better you fine tune it. I had so many different ways taught to to me that I got confused when it really is very simple.
Katrina
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 7:01 pm:
Granted florida doesn't have that many HIGH hills but there are a few. and rocky and interesting. The best way i was taught to control is to zigzag a bit on the hill. don't take it straight down. take it at a z....
and whatever happened to the plain old lean back as they go down the hill put your stirrups way forward and you slant back? is that not apropo anymore? i still stand in my stirrups when a horse pees though...
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Member:
Leilani
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Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 7:40 pm:
When we ride up Mauna Kea there are many steep areas. I was taught to look at the trees and try to position your body by their slant. We ride straight down so that if the horse stumbles he won't roll over you. Leilani
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 7:54 pm:
JoJo. I used to lean back too in the old days. Now they say its not good because you put weight on the hind which is not good as they need they hind end to get the legs under them. Ps I still stand for pees.
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Aug 7, 2006 - 9:00 pm:
I agree with Kthorse that going down hill or up hill, one should position the weight of the rider neither backward nor forward, but rather upright and balanced. JoJo, don't know where in Florida you are. In many areas of the state, I've enjoyed some really cool hilly trails that are great fun to ride! In addition to all of the above suggestions, I would add that not only back pain can cause a problem going up and down hills, but unbalanced feet can create a huge problem. Christos, I love your description of the half-halt. I've been waiting a long time to have it described in such a succinct way.
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 8, 2006 - 12:58 am:
I know there are a FEW here. But not what i have seen in Tenn Or other parts...
I like how leilani describes it.. sounds reasonable. the trees are your guide.
and so glad someone still stands in their stirrups when a horse pees...I thought maybe i was the only one left.
When someone says hilly terrain, I think about the scene from a Man from snowy river...
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 8, 2006 - 7:44 am:
Yes Leilani's description is good! You re right jojo --not too much Snowy River here in Florida but there are some terrific hills on some of the trails in the Cross Florida Greenways. I am fortunate to be surrounded by some large hills and ridges.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 8, 2006 - 8:44 am:
Dove ..
The key for me is to determine the one cue you want to communicate to the horse to move hind end under. As Christos described, I set a little deeper in the seat and move legs slightly forward. To get this cue ingrained, you may need to use multiple cues in the beginning .. but always start with the one cue you want and the horse will learn to anticipate.
I will start by positioning myself as described, then gently working the rein as Christos described followed by a series of checks and releases with the reins. I don't actually circle with my hands, but the result is similar. I hold the reins between my thumb and forefinger and let my remaining 3 fingers rest on the rein. I will then gently bump the reins with my 3 fingers. I feel this method helps me remain soft and consistent with my hands.
So, the routine is like this ..
As the horse is moving forward, I will position my seat and legs and relax, next I will bump the reins gently (at first) with my fingers then a little firmer until finally, I will pull back and up on the reins to check the horse. It is important to be consistent in your cues and always do in the exact same order. As soon as the horse responds, stop cuing. At first, you may go through all your cues, then it only takes 2 cues, and finally the horse will respond to the first "desired" cue.
Sorry the description may sound confusing, but it really is quite simple as you practice a little.
One other important thing as Karen mentioned is to learn to ride with open hip. Most everyone I work with wants to ride too much with legs and not enough seat. They want to use the legs to hang on, thus squeezing and closing the hip and thigh. This actually forces your seat up and out of the saddle destroying the balance of both horse and rider. Especially in Western, when setting the trot, the more you learn to ride with your seat, the less you will bounce.
DT
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 8, 2006 - 8:47 pm:
Jojo and Katrina, there's nothing wrong with leaning back a bit when going downhill. Who says it prevents the horse from engaging his hind end? How can someone say this when horses perform skid halts with their hind hooves almost under their nose when you sit deep and lean a bit back?
As Leilani says, your body being parallel with the trees is ideal, but keep it there or further back, never forward and always keep your seat firmly in the saddle.
A good reason to lean a bit back is that if the horse stumbles or slips you can support his head with the reins. You can't do that if you're in an insecure forward position, you'll be catapulted out of the saddle if you try.
Some will scream "aaargh, there, you're pulling the horse in the mouth!" but believe me, the horse understands the difference, appreciates the support and anyway, it is better to pull him a bit in the mouth than to tumble down the whole hillside.
PS: Who sits in the saddle when the horse pees?
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 9, 2006 - 8:02 am:
A week ago, I had a lesson outside - although it was not on a hill, my mare stumbled on uneven ground, and without thinking, I let the reins slip from my hands, not wanting to bump her in the mouth. She immedietely stumbled again and almost went down to her knees. My trainer got after me big time. Basically, she said what Christos said - if the horse is going to go down, lean back and use the reins as a "fifth" leg to help support the horse. Chances are, if I had not been in a lesson with my trainer always "reminding" me to sit back & deep, I would have gone over my horses head the first time she tripped and if I hadn't DrOpped her, it's likely she wouldn't have tripped the second time.
One of the first things I was ever taught was to stand up in the stirrups when the horse pees...however, I read somewhere that eons ago, mares were ridden into battle because they could pee on the go. I have no idea if that's true or not. All I know is when my mare has to pee, she plants her feet and won't move until shes good and done!
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Monday, Aug 14, 2006 - 1:04 pm:
I disagree that a rider can or should support a horse's head when they trip or are going downhill. Even if you could help a horse carry their head it would result in way too much pressure on the bit. There could be as much as 10-15lbs with a snaffle and 50-75lbs with a curb bit.
All that aside a horse knows better than us how to use their head for balance and recovery. If you ride rough back country terrain teach your horse to be responsible for their own feet, it should be their job to use their whole body to negotiate the trail. They are much better at it than us anyway and that leaves us to determine direction, speed and enjoying the scenery.
I teach my young horses to pay attention by giving them their head and pushing them forward when they trip or stumble on an obstacle. Most learn quickly to pay attention to the trail and become very careful about their foot placement. The young mare I'm riding in the mountains right now will carry her head nearly ground level all the way up above her withers depending on trail conditions. On the rare occasion she does trip she pushes forward on her own and her attention pops back to the work at hand, all without my input now.
I would also say if you have a chronic tripper you get another horse. Life is too short to be worrying about your horse tripping and landing on you.
As for rushing the hills I agree with everything else posted. I would add I encourage the horse to round a little shifting some weight off the forehand and getting their rear feet up under them, helping them come down slower.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Aug 14, 2006 - 2:07 pm:
Alden,
I am with you on this one. Only because my trails are so steep and go for 20-30 minutes or more down at a time. Mine also carries his head near ground level when he is uncertain of the terrain. I am not messing with him. Who I am to say what is the easiest way to keep him balanced as long as I feel his hind swinging under me I let him go. He knows best as to where his head should be. I just stop him or push his hind under more if I feel him becoming unbalanced.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Aug 14, 2006 - 4:33 pm:
The rider definitely can and should help a horse whose balance is shooting too far forward by supporting his head. A horse can easily carry 100lbs or more on the bit if needed. Not comfortably, but easily. Ask in any racetrack.
This is the main reason that pulling on the bit does not stop a determined horse. He can easily match the pull, no matter how strong.
When a horse stumbles, his weight shoots forward inadvertently, he does not do it on purpose to save his balance. He may manage to move his legs fast enough to catch his inadvertently advancing weight, he may not.
The rider can either sit there and watch how the horse will do on his own, or help him out of the uncomfortable and dangerous moment.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Aug 14, 2006 - 6:05 pm:
Christos, When my horse is able to be ridden again I will try your method and see if it helps him.
Katrina
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Monday, Aug 14, 2006 - 8:02 pm:
First hand experience with a chronic tripper. (Alden, his other strengths were so numerous that tripping was tolerable, he only did it at the walk). Had this horse for 5 years. Experimented with both loose rein and sitting back and supporting him. Lets just say I only did the loose rein twice. I really dont like seeing my life flash before my eyes like that. One of the times he scratched up his nose trying to recover.
Another perspective, not sure if it applies.
When eventers do DrOp fences they lean way back and slip the reins. As a matter of fact we make a point of not having any contact. The way it works is if you give them even a little contact they will jump into your hands and end up taking a big jump off the bank. For anyone that has done this, its really hard to land when a horse jumps big off a bank. Especially when there is another jump, a turn or water on the landing (or heaven forbid another DrOp). So, if you go off it in a relaxed pace and slip your reins, they come up to the edge and jump(or DrOp) down off the bank and land with their haunches under them instead of strung out. I am thinking this may be similar to going just down hill. If you give them something pull into they will use it, and then you might end up going faster than you intended.
As far as sitting back and preventing them from stepping under, I think horses like to raise their back to carry weight. Just think how they like to push against things. We spend so much time training this out of them when it is a natural reaction. My comparison is this, pretend you are carrying two water buckets, one significantly heavier. Which shoulder is higher?
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Monday, Aug 14, 2006 - 8:06 pm:
Another thing, I think people underestimate how much work it is for horses to go down a steep hill and stay balanced and slow. You need to give the young horses a break and either give them lots of rests or be more demanding on the easier hills for awhile until they get used to it. Lots of walk/halts.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Monday, Aug 14, 2006 - 8:45 pm:
Hmmm, Alden and I are in agreement here about supporting a tripping horse with the reins. Picture yourself carrying a child piggyback. You trip. Can the child keep you from falling by pulling hard on your hair to "support" your head?
Physics tells us that it is impossible to pull the horse up from a trip by the reins if you are riding the horse! The head and neck are thrust downward by the horse when it trips as a counterbalance, allowing it to relieve the weight from the front legs and step out to catch itself. Similar to how a jumper uses his head and neck to get over the jumps. You can't haul a horse over a higher jump by pulling up on the reins (quite the contrary!), so naturally, you can't pull him up off the ground, either.
However, you can cause the horse to keep himself collected by shortening your reins, therefore putting more weight to the rear and lessening the likelihood of tumbling over forward. So if that is what some of you meant, I apologize for misunderstanding.
Karen, practice on tiny hills all the good advice above. Your horse will get it easier if he only has to maintain his balance and speed for a few steps. Once he figures out that he can control himself he will do better on longer/steeper hills.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Aug 14, 2006 - 9:12 pm:
Wrong physics, Erika.
You're not sitting behind a horse's ears, you're sitting in the middle of his back.
Imagine yourself playing horse with a kid on your back, you trotting on all four on the floor. The kid holds on to reins, ie a belt you hold in your teeth.
Now imagine your hands slip on oil. Would you want that kid to lean back and hold you in the mouth or not?
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Aug 14, 2006 - 9:28 pm:
Shelley makes an important point.
If we constantly hold a horse's mouth when going downhill, the horse will lean into it for support and actually throw his balance forward and accelerate.
We only apply rein as a cue to slow down, momentarily, and only support the horse in the mouth if he stumbles.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Monday, Aug 14, 2006 - 9:31 pm:
No Christos, it would not keep me off the floor unless that child was holding on to a strong beam in the ceiling with a very strong right arm while he pulled on my mouth with another very strong left.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 5:29 am:
Absolutely, Erika, the rider is not able to lift the front of the horse completely off the ground by pulling on the reins. Lucky I am, that would make Dressage too easy and I would miss my only chance to display some basic form of intelligence.
And I am not saying that the kid on your back will prevent you from hitting the floor.
But he will delay the fall and buy you a splitsecond to regain your footing (handing?).
Not all balance is static, Erika.
Think again. Ride a tall table, let's say 2ft X 2ft, 4ft tall. Your legs are off the ground. You are holding to no ceiling beam. Now can you lift the front legs of that table off the ground for a splitsecond or not? If not, read on.
That is dynamic balance. Somebody correct me with the terms of physics if I am wrong, I am only translating from Greek.
The horse's center of mass is more or less directly under you. When he stumbles, it shoots forward a bit. Both these conditions allow you to apply dynamic torque. If the horse's center of mass was even slightly behind you, this wouldn't be possible (that's the reason if you can't teach that table the levade).
By throwing your weight back while pulling on the reins you momentarily apply upwards torque on his front end.
The horse's head coming down when he stumbles is his attempt to create an upwards counter force to delay the fall for a splitsecond. Supporting his head will prevent him from fully swinging his head downwards but in exchange for an earlier torque. A better save.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 8:42 am:
Oooh Christos, I love a good scientific debate (sorry Karen for taking your thread a bit off topic)!
There is a law of physics that says every action has an equal and opposite reaction, no? In order to pull up on the reins you are causing a downward push from your seat at the same time. Since the seat bones are at the center of the horse's balance, it becomes the affecting force upon the horse's front legs much more than the dynamic force (head is not braced against reins, but is drawn upward-in essence "wasting" some of the force applied there in the form of following movement)Your reins are applying torque to the horses body, not lift. Therefore the downward force ends up being greater than the uplifting force.
Put a hundred people on an airplane. Have them sit on top if you like, anywhere, it doesn't matter. Give them a rope attached to any point on that plane of your choice. Have everyone heave on that rope at the same time and what will you get--not a flying plane but a big crunch as the plane is folded in half. Their butts are pushing the plane down with the same force as they are lifting, and add gravity to the whole mix, and the downward force wins.
As for the table, your momentary lift comes because of the DOWNWARD force you are exerting through the legs of the table to the floor with the push from your seat. It is the reaction to that push that, a split second later, will lift the legs. But too late! You have already poked dents into your wife's beautiful new floor with your downward thrust .
And don't think that leaning back will move your center of gravity backward on the horse and make it work. Your seat is the fulcrum point of the force, not your upper torso, no matter where it is inclined. It MAY help somewhat if you are sitting on the horse's rump, behind the new fulcrum, the back legs--but if any of you are quick enough to lightly slip back to the rump before you pull the horse's head up in time to make a difference on 1,000 lbs of velocity-packed meat that is headed downward...well, you have my admiration! (But I'm till not convinced there would be any net lift there, either).
Any physics professors out there to guide us further?
Boy,oh boy, this is strong coffee this morning...Now that I have probably bored 90% of our fellow members, Christos, come on over for some coffee and I'll draw you a diagram! .
All in good fun,
Erika
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 9:30 am:
What you applied on the table was wrong. I told you to sit over its center of mass or very slightly behind it and try to lift the "front" legs, not sit over the front edge and bounce.
Once you get that right, we'll move to the standing horse. Then to the moving horse. Airplanes will come, in time, if you're interested, I'm really good with them.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 9:54 am:
Nope, couldn't lift the table your way either.
And who sits behind the center of a horse's mass?
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 9:56 am:
Erika, I think there is a flaw in your example of an airplane. You CAN apply angular forces to an object with your weight. Think about the yacht racers, they leverage themselves out there to keep the boat upright. That is of course a static example. There is also the example that you can throw yourself back and forth on a dingy and get that boat really rocking.
You mention the fact that the downward force wins. Well that is exactly what you want. You want the downward force to win over the angular forces that are trying to put the horse on his nose. As I have said earlier with my old "tripper", while on this horse we came precariously close to rolling over on his nose or shoulder. Horses can handle downward forces on their legs quite well.
Another thing I noticed when I drew a simple force diagram of a horse and rider. When you add the rider,and reins you have created a triangle external to the horse. We all know how diagonal bracing can help a house stand up right and not blow over with the wind. I would imagine that the benefit would be similar for a horse. Of course they have their have their own system of diagonal supports with in their skeletal system, ours is just a temporary crutch.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 10:17 am:
I sit behind the center of a horse's mass. Always slightly behind. Why?
How exactly did you try to lift the table? Did you attach belts around the base of the table's legs to simulate reins or did you just pull on the edge?
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 10:18 am:
Shelly, I'll grant you that the airplane was a poor example. But I think that your yacht example is not compatible with the horse example either, nor is the triangular brace of the house.
First the yacht/dingy: There is equal, albeit fluid support under the boat, giving a braced surface --again, but fluid--upon which to apply your downward force, causing the other end to rise. If a horse has lost the support under the front, there is nothing to push against to provide lift. If you put the front half of the boat over the edge of a waterfall, thus removing the support UNDER THAT PART, you couldn't rock the boat back and forth, you could only tip it over the falls.
Next the triangle of support on a house. Take away one supporting wall (horse's front feet) and it doesn't matter how strong the triangle is, it will pitch toward the removed wall.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 10:19 am:
Christos, c'mon, make us a video of that one. No way will it work unless you are behind the fulcrum--rear legs. Don't sit on your horse's rump.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 10:39 am:
Karen ... I don't know about all this scientific stuff, or what is has to do with your question for that matter. If you let a horse run up or down hills, he will. If you position yourself properly and "check" your horse, he will not. Go figure ......
DT
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 10:48 am:
I do not need to prove anything in video, Erika. Certainly not elementary physics, anyway, they have been proven long before me.
This is just a suggestion. If you do what I'm saying, it will work. If you don't want to, because you don't believe it will work or for whatever other reason, that's fine with me.
Why not sit on my horse's rump? We both enjoy it sometimes.
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 10:56 am:
Erika, I agree, if you take away a horses front legs, he will fall on his nose.
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New Member:
Kjmleila
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 11:45 am:
Hi All,
Lively discussion. I actually have been working on half halts, and it seems to be working a majority of the time. I now "prepare" my mare for going down hills by doing a half halt at the start and then as needed down the hill. I 'm trying not to use the reins to hold her up. I'm trying to use my seat to encourage her to get her back feet under herself. She is responding much better than before. However, this only seems to work when we go out by ourselves. When I go on rides with my two friends who have TB crosses, my horse is more worried about keeping up then paying attention to me. Another topic to discuss sometime.
Karen
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Member:
Dakotab
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 12:25 pm:
I agree with Dennis. We have a lot of steep hills in NW Pa. And they are usually muddy. We all check our horses before we start down a hill and tell them to walk. Using half halts if necessary. If my horse slips, I pull back and release, and he usual just lifts his head to regain his balance.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 12:37 pm:
There you go Hilma ..... Simple as that.
DT
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 1:10 pm:
Hey, Karen,
I see that you are from Vermont. Where do you ride?
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 1:24 pm:
Wow, this sure seems to be of interest to many here
First, I work way too hard to get a soft mouth on my horses to apply enough rein pressure to lift their heads. I do what has been described as half-halts to keep the horse on his butt, all is well if they stay there As for the physics of it I'm not an expert, I just know what is working in very rough terrain of the Rocky Mountains.
Oh, I forgot to mention I'm riding this young mare in a bosal, so I couldn't lift her head if I wanted, just turn it .
Second, I agree totally with the person who said young horses need to build muscles for going down hill. Until those are developed don't expect or ask too much.
I still say, from experience, that it's better to push a horse that trips and they will learn to pay attention to their feet. First rule out medical problems of course, but most I've worked with tripped due to inattention to the work at hand.
I'll also say that I feel that riders who don't fuss all the time on the trail have happier trail horses. I may not be able to clearly describe this but I know riders who are constantly fussing with their horses on the trail worrying about every step and the horses are nervous wrecks. On the other hand I just send mine down the trail providing direction and speed and they go ears forward and quiet. Is there a connection? I don't know for sure, but I know I'm more content when I'm not being nagged all the time
Good day,
Alden
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New Member:
Kjmleila
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 1:30 pm:
I'm in Waterbury Center. I keep my horses off Lomis Hill Road. I have some nice logging roads and trails. Not really extensive but enjoyable. I also have some unexplored trails to check out.
Karen
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 3:42 pm:
No kidding! I have many good friends in Waterbury and all over the state. Next time you are into THE TACK EXCHANGE, please tell Pat Verdon and Bev McMullin that I am doing well, the horses are doing well, we are loving Kansas, but that I miss MacIntosh apples, Cabot Extra Sharp Cheddar, and autumn in Vermont. Have fun.
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Member:
Kjmleila
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 4:13 pm:
Holly,
Vermont is a great place! I thought you might want to know that the Tack Exchange is going out of business. I think they plan on closing sometime in September. I have gotten such great advice from both Pat and Bev. I was hoping someone would buy Bev's business. It will be a bummer not having a good tack store in town. I guess I might save a boat-load of money but I really will miss the advice.
Karen
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 4:47 pm:
Oh, gee . . . They really filled a niche there in Central Vermont. The only other place that I know is in Plainfield . . . Hillcrest, and of course, if you want to go north, there are a couple up there. Blue Seal in Montpelier had some horse equipment, but nothing like what Bev carried. Whatever will Pat do? Ooops . . . company just DrOve up . . . gotta run. e-mail me privately, if you like. Enjoy Vermont. I loved it.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 6:30 pm:
I check my horse as Dennis says. when his speed is too fast downhill or when I feel his balance is off. even though I let him have his head when he is travelling as I want. Is this what I think Alden is saying. Or is the idea Christos to keep the contact and support the whole time? Sorry for the silly question I am getting more confused as this goes on. My horse has no problems down hill but if there is a better way I am open. Just want to get it straight.
Katrina
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 7:09 pm:
If you attempt to support the horse or slow him down by holding him in the mouth all the time, he will stretch into the support throwing his balance forward and accelerating. Not a good idea, especially downhill.
Use half halts, checks, to control the horse's speed and only support him by holding his head the moment he stumbles.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 - 7:42 pm:
Christos, Thats what I thought or at least hoped thats what you meant. Ok so I do all that except for when he stumbles, that, as I said before, I will have to try ,not that he stumbles alot. Ok now I am not confused. cant wait to try this and see if it helps or hinders.
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Member:
Hally
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 16, 2006 - 4:50 pm:
I agree totally with Hilma and Dennis. Visualization is fine to a point however sometimes good old matter of fact common sense works also. Sit deep into the saddle, check (or half halt. Same thing) release but dont throw away the your contact.Half halts are not all that complicated just a matter of timing and practice which comes with experience.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 10:53 am:
Hello Everyone,
I often don't follow the training discussions as closely as I do the health sections, partially due to time constraints but mostly because there are more educated people than me on this site about this subject. However this one caught my eye for the newsletter and having recently seen an article in EQUUS that discussed this subject and made recommendations that ran counter to ever experience I have ever had on riding downhill I thought I would post. I presume the writing did not really reflect what the experienced trail rider was saying.
The article made the recommendation that you should not lean back going downhill, nor forward uphill, that you should maintain the same seat as on level ground. Almost weekly we ride the Blue Ridge Mountains so are constantly going up and down hill and to maintain the same seat in all circumstances, is fool hearty in my experience and makes no sense from a physical standpoint.
When a horse is traveling downhill both your's and the horse's weight shift to the front legs which is already 5o% heavier than the rear on the level. To not lean back increases this effect and places your center of balance well ahead of your support in the stirrups, assuming you were balanced to begin with. Try to stand in the stirrups in such a position and you fall forward. Not only have you made tripping more likely by increasing the load on the front, if the horse trips you are near certain to go over the top of the horse.
Concerning supporting the head with the reins during a trip, I know I do and feel it helps keep the horse from falling forward. Thinking about the arguments above and trying to work out the force lines on a piece of paper quickly you become mired in a system far more complicated than one involving a simple fulcrum and lever and a system with dozens of variables. Erika is right if the horse has no front leg support and you are both already falling, pulling on the reins will have no effect on the fall. But this does not describe the normal trip. Following the trip, the horse begins the stumble by having the head thrown forward and down with respect to the horses torso. Your mass is on this torso therefore you are somewhat isolated from this first motion. As such your mass and its inertia are available to provide a damping effect on the heads movement. And yes as you pull on the reins, force is transmitted down through your seat but with some of the front supported some of this ends up on the rear legs.
As to whether all of this creates a significant advantage to the horse with respect to the trip I don't know. I let the feet get out of balance on one of our horses and he became a tripping nightmare with as many as 20 or 30 mild stumbles and 4 big trips on one ride. The trips I supported did not seem as bad as the ones I didn't and you can bet I have been watching those feet much closer since.
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 2:46 pm:
IMO you are totally right on all accounts, Dr.O. I'm not sure what kind of hills the writer has been riding, but they for sure weren't in the Rockies or Sierras!
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 - 5:04 am:
Obviously the writer has never been hunting... If your horse is trying to gallop down a precipitous incline near a quarry in order to catch up with the field I can promise you will use the reins.
Best wishes
Imogen
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