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Discussion on Rear End higher then withers
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Member:
Pinkapp
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Posted on Friday, Dec 24, 2004 - 9:04 pm:
Becky,
I've got you beat by a country mile!!! My filly, coming 3 years on April 20th, stands 16.1 at the rump and a disappointing 15.1 1/4 in the front! I've expressed concerns about this elsewhere on this forum because it seems to me that a 3 3/4 inch difference is...well...HUGE. I've been assured by forum members, and my personal vet, that she'll even out eventually, but I'm still rather dubious about it.
With that said, I do have to tell you that I went ahead and started this youngster, with the blessing of my vet, and she had a PHENOMENAL 2 year old year in Hunter Under Saddle classes. In her last show this year she took 3 firsts, 2 seconds and 2 thirds in classes against aged, seasoned and decidedly more level top-lined entrants. In fact, she earned a Circuit Reserve Champion Green Horse year-end award her first year out!! Tomorrow I'll download and post a performance picture of her at the trot that shows just how downhill she is...and what an ENORMOUS trot she produces, too!
Despite the fact that it would seem she should have difficulties with collection, that has NOT been the case. I guess the moral of this story is that each individual is able to compensate for conformational pitfalls differently. What might cause performance problems for one animal may not even factor into the equation for another. Just the same, I'll be ecstatic if this filly finally does level out.
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 - 8:46 am:
Becky, Just to reassure you I will echo what Teresa said. Most two year olds will at some point show uneven growth, I was pleased to see it in my two year old because it means she is growing and when the unevenness appeared again in her early third year I was thrilled. When she evens out and her whithers 'spring' she will be a perfect height for me. I haave a friend who has a mare whose offspring have never shown much unevenness, but I think they are the exception.
Good luck
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Member:
Pinkapp
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 - 10:47 am:
Lori wrote:
"Most two year olds will at some point show uneven growth, I was pleased to see it in my two year old because it means she is growing and when the unevenness appeared again in her early third year I was thrilled."
The reason I'm questioning whether MY filly will ever even up is because she's NEVER been even, except at birth. I would rest easier had she gone through the normal even, uneven cycles displayed by growing horses but she's always been at least 3" shorter in front. It doesn't seem to be effecting her performance to this point, but I can't help but wonder how it will impact her long-term soundness should she never become even.
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Member:
Pinkapp
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 - 11:55 am:
The photo below shows what I mean about Sabrina being horribly uneven since she was very little. Since the difference in front and rear heights hasn't changed much in 2 years, I'm starting to worry that she isn't going to ever catch up.
The following picture was taking this Spring at age 2 years. She's still very uneven but it didn't effect her performance much. I'd like to have seen her driving a little deeper behind and not so far behind the bit, but she had only been under saddle about 45 days at this point.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 - 3:09 pm:
I don't think she look abnormal for her age from what I can see in these pictures. Some horses do stay a little "downhill" when they mature, but most of them even out. I suspect she will too in another couple of years.
Isn't she a bit young to be showing under saddle (even though she did so good?) What breed is she? Apendix QH? TB? She's got a beautiful shoulder and strong hip. If she were mine, I'd just let her grow up a bit more.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 - 5:44 pm:
Maureen,
A horse with extreme downhill conformation is impossible to collect, simply because the longer hind legs will step on the front ones if collection is attempted.
So, while you're pressing her in the mouth to bring her weight backwards, all she can do is to go behind the bit.
This kills the action of the shoulder, which increases the chance of the hind hooves catching up with the front ones.
Again, because the hind legs can not step well under so to push the body upwards, there's no elevation in the trot, which also increases the danger of hitting a front leg.
You can see in the picture that her hind end is totally disengaged, the croup is not tucked under at all and the right hind does not track up with the right front.
As you can also see in the picture, the front hoof can land only up to where the horse's face is pointing.
Giving her a bit more rein will decompress the neck, bring the poll up and free the shoulder, thus allowing the hind legs to step under a bit better.
All the best,
Christos
PS: I'd suggest that you do not attempt to canter her in such a frame, she'll have to canter with her hind legs spread out to the sides which is detrimental to a horse's hocks.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 - 5:46 pm:
Maureen, I will second the opinion of Sara, I don't think it wise to be riding her much before 4, looks like she has a lot of growing left to do... nor does it seem to be safe, looks like the rider might topple over her head at any stumble...
All tho she has a lower tail set, I am guessing there is some Arab in her, as she is also a little straight behind.. just a guess ...
Sure would not worry much.. she is a lovely mare and there is time to grow...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 - 7:02 pm:
That pretty filly is built like my 15 yr old Arab. She was built that way at 2 1/2, and she stayed that way. My reason for posting is to comment on Christo's post: My mare will step on her front heels within 3-4 weeks after trimming. I wish I would of had (or should I say wish I had) Christo's knowledge and skill because I now have a horse who is behind the bit, and who has lost some of her "floating trot, and rocking horse canter" typical of her breed. My mare also has a bump on her wither from yrs of improper saddle fit as it's hard to keep the saddle from sliding forward. Add the high head carriage of an Arab, and a hay belly that comes with older age and I know have a mare that looks like a sway backed nag and one who I don't enjoy riding as much.
I agree with Sara and Ann, why is she being rode under saddle at such a young age? Assuming your riding skills and knowledge are greater than mine; (which I wouldn't take much, grin) that and giving her time to finish growing may prevent some of the problems I caused in my down hill horse.
A more positive note the ol' cowboy I bought mine from said she was a good horse for speed because her rump was higher. She can turn quick, take off like her tail is on fire, and stand on 2 legs better than any horse I've ever met. And she does a fabulous rear/kick in the air move, like the Lippazians do!!!! Better to watch than ride, trust me!!
Take your time, let 'em grow is my motto.
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Member:
Chohler
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 - 7:03 pm:
hello,
I wouldn't worry much about the rump being higher than the withers at her age.
I have a five year old mustang that apparently decided he wants to grow some more, he is 16 hands at the withers and his rump is again about a good 5 inches higher. When I adopted him 9 months ago he was 15.1
He is the spitting image of an andulusian and very gorgeous in english attire. I suspect some draft lineage given he is 5 and still not done growing but then again living on the range isn't that conductive to growing, so i guess he is making up for lost time.
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Member:
Pinkapp
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 - 7:22 pm:
I'm not sure what part of the country or world each of you is from, but here on the East Coast it's a normal, customary thing to start horses at age 2. Prior to starting Sabrina, I consulted with several vets and they all concurred that it wouldn't cause problems. And, as always, I kept a keen eye for pain, swelling or indications that she was not enjoying her job and, therefore, not mentally ready. She has never exhibited any of those problems.
When it comes to the amount of collection in the photos, as I said, she had only 45 days riding time on her. I breed, raise and train all of my own stock and move along slower than "traditional" trainers that try to cram in as much as possible in 30 days time. While she was not engaging behind in that photo, she certainly was at her last show this season held in November. I've never had problems with saddle slippage, falling forward over her withers (even at a stumble) or with her striking her front legs or hooves with her rear ones.
I raised and trained her uncle, as well, and seeing that she's showing so much enjoyment and aptitude for the HUS division, I'm hoping she finishes out to be the exceptional hunter that he was. He's pictured below at age 5.
As for her breeding (and his, too, of course)...I just love doing this! No, she is NOT an Appendix QH, a TB or an Arab. Instead, she is an incredibly talented, well-bred registered Appaloosa that just happens to be missing the traditional paintjob. AND...since I refuse to engage in the thoroughly repugnant practice of blocking tails, she is exhibiting NATURAL tail carriage.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 - 11:21 pm:
Interesting that she is appy.. looks like she does not even have the striped hoofs as well... she could color out down the road of course... her uncle appears to be roaning out or had gray in his blood lines?? Maureen I am on the west coast, and some folks do back their horses at two.. mostly western 1/4 horse trainers getting them ready for the futurities.. what I am saying is it appears that this mare is STILL growing, why stress her more while she is filling out.. no offence tended...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
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Member:
Pinkapp
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 - 7:49 am:
Ann,
I took no offense at your question about starting her at 2, was just explaining the way it's done in my area. I watch all of my horses for signs of being pushed too hard, too early and would gladly rather stop their training than to continue pushing. Dagwood, the gelding in the above photo, Sabrina's uncle, was level at age 2 but didn't have the mental or physical fortitude to excel in training. I didn't push him and it wasn't until his 5th year that he was finally able to collect and canter correctly. That's NOT the case with Sabrina. She LOVES her job and has more raw talent for under saddle work than Dagwood ever had. I do not ask her for more than she is willing or capable of producing.
By the way, Dagwood is a red roan. In outdoor photos such as the one I posted, he washes out to appear almost white.
Sabrina, I suspect, will be the one to end up gray as her dam is about as QH-looking gray as you can get. 3rd place photo from Appaloosa Nationals below.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 - 8:51 am:
Maureen,
I am speechless. Appy?!!! I would never have guessed that in a million yrs from the 1st picture. Both horses are beautiful!! Unfortunately I have never met (til now) an Appaloosa I liked the looks of or one who's attitude I liked. Guess I have to go East.
You sound like you are very caring and concerned about your horses and starting them at 2 seems to be working out o.k. for you. I am sure she will be fine.
I have a Qtr/Morgan/Freisian mix gelding who has been growing like a see/saw. He's approaching 3 now, and seems to be fairly even. Unfortunately I don't think his brain has caught up yet, but I am still hoping that happens soon.
Life with horses, what an adventure!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 - 11:04 am:
Your two grays are beautiful! If they and the filly are typical examples of your breeding program, you are producing very pretty horses.
IMO, the age at which horses are started, and how heavily they are worked, isn't so much a matter of geography as a matter of breed, conformation, mental age, etc.
And Christos, as usual, you are right on with your commets. Are you sure you don't want to move to the SW United States? }}
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Member:
Pinkapp
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 - 12:23 pm:
Sara,
Thank you for the nice comments. I'll share one last photo. This was my 2004 foal, unfortunately orphaned at 2 months of age.
He's 5 months in this photo.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 - 2:02 pm:
Very nice build.
I have a question for you though. We breed Egyptian Arabians and I'd be the first to admit I'm not up on standards, what is popular, etc. for other breeds. As Egyptian breeders, we are considered preservationist breeders in that we strive to preserve the "type" and traits for which Egyptians are known.
The horses I think of when I hear "Appaloosa" are stocky, rather large boned, skimpy mane and tail, with spots...like the old pictures you see of "indian ponies." My mother used to have one of these Appys. He was a good, solid horse with a keen sense of humor, but looked nothing like your horses.
Is there a trend now to change the style of the Appy, or are there a lot of diviations within the breed? Your horses are beautiful and look like good performance horses, but just don't look like what I'm used to thinking of as Appys.
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Member:
Pinkapp
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 - 4:36 pm:
Yours is a common misconception that I run into quite frequently. When I told my QH buddies that I was bailing from the QH ranks for the Appaloosa, I got stares of disbelief and cries of, "APPALOOSA!!! Why give up all THIS just to ride some plow horse?!" But just as QH breeders are now breeding a more "modern" QH, many Appaloosa breeders are breeding more "modern" Apps. There is a long-standing argument within Appaloosa ranks, not only about changing their "style", but also of permitting registration of solid individuals like mine. Then again, there are those in the QH ranks that feel the "modern" QH is an abomination of what the Association founders started. Guess you just can't please everyone!
One must understand a bit about Appaloosa history, too. The Appaloosa as it was bred by the Nez Perce Indians looked nothing like the "old-time" Apps nor the "modern" Apps. Nez Perce Appaloosas were extremely streamlined, fast, sure-footed and had extraordinary stamina and endurance. These traits contributed largely to the tribe's ability to avoid capture by the US Army over a 1500 mile scramble for what they thought would be freedom in Canada. Unfortunately, that was not to be as the Army caught up with them at their camp about 10 miles from the US/Canadian border. Each year the Chief Joseph Trail ride memorializes this "flight for freedom" by hosting a trail ride over a portion of that 1500 mile route. A mandate from the government required that all Appaloosa horses that could be located were to be slaughtered or bred only to Draught breeds. The reasoning behind this mandate was that by slaughtering large portions of the Indians' transport system or breeding them to slower, heavier Draught breeds, it would paralyze the Indians' ability to re-establish their powerful nations and, therefore, force them into submission. The Draught influence is why many of the "old-time" Appaloosas had thick necks, large feet, heavy bodies and, many times, Roman noses. The Nez Perce tribe of today has broken from both the Appaloosa Foundation breeders AND the Appaloosa Horse Club to re-establish their own breeding program and registry by crossing colored Appaloosa mares with the Russian Akhal-Teke. This, they assert, will eventually produce as near a replica as possible of the "original" Appaloosa.
While skimpy manes and tails can still be found on today's Apps, it's not a "pre-requisite" for being an Appaloosa. Appaloosa registration characteristics are coat pattern OR mottled skin and at least one of the following: sclera (white encircling the eye) or striped hooves. For those App-to-App breedings that result in foals that have no coat pattern and no other characteristics, there is the Certified Pedigree Option (CPO) whereby an official inspector examines the horse, verifies DNA parentage and microchips the animal. Previously, inspected animals were lip tatooed. It is then given full ApHC breed show eligibility and eligibility to be bred to a REGULAR registered (has color or characteristics) animal.
As for the fact that all my Appaloosas are solid...well, that's just fate. The solid black colt pictured above was the product of a colored stud to a colored mare. Lewis & Clark provided one of this nation's best firsthand accounts of the Appaloosa, and Native Americans in general. They took special care to note that although the Nez Perce were reknown for their spotted horses, the had many solids, as well, and considered them a valuable part of their breeding "program", as do I.
I'm sure to get myself into trouble with die-hard colored-App enthusiasts, but I chose the Appaloosa breed because I love their mental and physical sturdiness, their kindness and sense of humor, their athleticism and their affordability. The talented Appaloosa show horse that costs $15,000 would cost at LEAST twice as much for an equally talented QH. To get an Appaloosa with the spotted coat coloring is icing on the cake in my opinion. When I choose which horses to purchase and/or breed, I choose them based on temperament, athletic ability, health and conformation. Whether they have "color" or not is the least of my thoughts. I would much rather have a superior Appaloosa without "color" then an inferior one with tons of it. But that's just me...and one of the reasons the Appaloosa's such a wonderful breed - we have a little something for everyone!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 - 5:52 pm:
Maureen, thanks so much for all the information; I really learned a lot. I have been over the pass that Cheif Joseph used.(At least over the road that follows the pass.) It is unbelievably high, rugged and steep. Anyone as daring as Cheif Joseph deserved to be free.
I always thought the Appys the Nez Peirce had must have been different than the heavy set ones I'm more familiar with; I just assumed the "modern" Appy's looked the way they did because they were so heavily bred to the "modern" QH.
I've never heard before that the government ordered the slaughter of their horses. It follows the same pattern the government followed with many other tribes, including the slaughter of the Navajo's Dine sheep....another long, sad story.
I totally agree with your decission to breed for conformation and attitude before tyring to breed for color. A lot of breeders have not been so wise and have put color before anything else, and have given a bad name to a lot of bloodlines within several breeds.
Thanks again for the enlightenment.
btw-I believe you mentioned you were back East. What state are you in?
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Member:
Pinkapp
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 - 8:38 pm:
I'm in the Pothole Capital of the World - Pennsylvania.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 - 9:21 pm:
I "visited" your state very briefly on my last trip home from NY. The airport in Cleveland was way backed up due to snow and the flight I was on was diverted to Pittsburg where we sat in the plane for two hours before flying back to Cleveland, where I was lucky enough to catch the last flight out.
Good luck with your breeding program. You have some very nice looking horses.
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Member:
Canyon28
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Posted on Monday, Dec 27, 2004 - 11:53 am:
If your filly is still downhill at the withers at age 2.5, then she will probably mature that way. I have a mare like that and she never changed. But she is fun to ride and can collect, I dont know why someone said they cannot be collected. I ride western and she has a very pretty slow lope and is also a very pretty mare. Her first foal doesnt have her problem, so that is fine with me. He is very even at almost two years old.
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Dec 27, 2004 - 4:50 pm:
Since a horse will continue to grow past three years there is still hope but after seeing the picture I understand your concern. So you know anything about her background? How did her dam and sire mature?
The physical problems from riding two year olds don't show up until the horse is older, sway backed at12- 15-gee too bad.
There is a huge difference between a slow lope and collection, they are two different ideas.
It is reletilely easy to teach a slow lope, some people think just because they are moving slowly and their horses nose is towards the vertical they are doinf collection. Not so.
As Christos stated collection with a horse that is built 'downhill' is going to be more difficult.
This does not necessarily detract from the value of the horse since one can have a wonderful relationship with a horse of any type or build.
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