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Discussion on Saddle tree
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2000 - 6:46 am:
Hi,
I have an Arabian Saddle company Sylvan on trial. Let me just say this is a very comfy saddle! Anyway, The points seem a bit tight-I can get get my fingers under with effort but the pommel is 3 to 4 finger of room under which sounds good for a new saddle and the saddle is level and balanced thus I feel an extra wide would be too wide-i called the company and was told that the Master saddler could "tweek" the tree. Also i asked if perhaps it won't fit as my horse fills out (he is green) I was told that they would adjust the tree up to a year! Sounds great-has anyone heard of this being possible?
Part two of my post "Ansur" I have been looking at saddles for 2 month-oh man I guess it's been three months-I rode in an Ansur-2x! I then ordered the Arabian saddle company saddle to try (as i couldn't find any used ones) I also ordered a petite Ansur (I know how did I do this!) I had been riding bareback for 2 weeks as my horse was getting really grumpy in any saddles I tried I even took a lesson that way  Then I tried the Ansur again (small) my legs were much more comfortable (than the first time i tried it) but the saddle did seem a little up hill and I was constantly sliding back. I keep going back and forth about which saddle. Dante has a very sloping shoulder and the Sylvan all purpose saddle is very close to the tip of the shoulder but hasn't bothered him in the three rides. I want to start jumping him so that is why I got the all purpose and I'm not sure if I can shorten the stir-ups for jumping in the Ansur (low jumps) as my knee was quite close to the flap and this was with a long stirrup.
I just keep going in circles! Wish both saddles were here at the same time! Any comments?
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2000 - 9:00 pm:
Hi Kim--the ASC tree may be made of plastic or nylon, which makes it very easy to heat up and spread, or squish, as you require. This is not a bad thing as many, many saddle trees are now made from synthetic materials & will probably last longer than will wooden trees.
If your horse is anything like my Arabians, he will continue to grow until he's six or seven, and if you're doing work like dressage, will muscle up more than you ever imagined.
To me, your saddle sounds too narrow already. Did you make a template before you ordered? I know the company used to send out a little schematic of templates, so you could compare them to the horse's measurements. If your horse has a curvy back, check to see that the saddle isn't bridging.
Many people really, really like the Ansur. I'm still skeptical--probably because I've seen a lot of very sore endurance horses who were used in treeless saddles (not Ansurs, but I tend to think that treeless is treeless). I'm more in favor of keeping the weight spread over a larger area and also not putting weight directly on the horse's spine, although some horses' spines are very well protected my fat & muscles.
All that said, at least you wouldn't have to get another saddle when your horse changes shape if you bought an Ansur.
Just a guess, but I think that the ASC saddles would have a better resale value than the Ansur.
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2000 - 9:27 pm:
Thanks Eve, The best thing in all this saddle hunting is that Dante is very sensative thus lets me know when something isn't right-although he is very eager to please and has a great attitude-bareback i wore a filled vest as it is getting cold here and the back of it would touch him and he hated it-he tried to shake me off like a fly even reached back to grab at it! I ended up tucking the thing into my riding pants (a pretty site!) He did seem to like the Ansur and i haven't been able to find one person who has anything bad to say about them-The few i have seen used haven't been ridden in much-which means? The unknown is always scarey, but in theory it makes alot of sence. Dante really liked bareback (except for his little prince and the pea bit) and my seat also benifitted from it-so that makes another check on the Ansur side.
At this point i have two companies that think I'm buying their saddle and i hate that feeling-although the ASC does know I'm riding as a trial-it's still a new saddle. Ansur says you have 7 days to change your mind-but i don't think they think you are considering this a trial.As they want it back in "unused "condition-It's so hard when the prices are so high!
Kim
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2000 - 9:44 pm:
Oh-I do have a template and will send it to them if i get the ASC Sylvan. I had ordered the wide as I tried an endurence model ASC med wide that i had come across at Pelham saddlery and it was too narrow-the 32 stubben scandica fits well for width but of course being a dressage saddle it didn't come close to his shoulder. Kim
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2000 - 6:04 am:
Hi Kim,
We just had a clinic with a master saddle fitter and massage clinician from New Zealand who was here in the US. Out of the eight horses he checked, not a single saddle fit. The mistates people seem to consistently make are not placing the saddle back far enough and not having a saddle wide enough.
If you can not place three fingers in the channel in the back all the way to the front-it's too small. He has fit over 5,000 horses (does not endorse any brand)and has not found a horse yet that a tree that small will fit. Check by placing the middle finger in the ridge down the horses back. The two fingers either side will be on the bony protrusions of the spine, which you can feel. (If your hands are small, you may have to spread your fingers). This is the area you do not want to have anything touching, so the channel of your saddle should be wide enough to bridge over the points. Two and 1/2 inches is the minimum width that any channel should be.
Also, check how the pannel sits along the back, without the saddle being girthed up. It must be in contact with the back all the way along and as far to the back of the saddle as possible. Contact must be even all the way. This is where you may have to have a saddle fitter adjust if everything else fits.
Placement of the saddle is just as important. A couple of people were going back far enough, but the majority did not. Dosn't matter what saddle or kind of riding you do. The saddle needs to be behind the muscle of the shoulder-not on it. You can have someone pull the front leg of the horse out and see how far the shoulder rotates. The shoulder must have complete freedom for flatwork, jumping etc. When the foreleg is stretched out the shoulder blade swings back about 3 inches. If the saddle is touching in that area, the shoulder blade bangs into the points of the saddle tree (even under that packing)with every step the horse takes. Eventually this can lead to scar tissue forming within the muscles. If the saddle is in the correct position it makes it easier for the horse to elevate his front end and use his hindquarters.
Needless to say, we were all very impressed with this clinc and have invited him back in the spring. He spoke at Equitana and will be holding clinics here in the US again in spring. If you would like a copy of the information, send me an email.
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 23, 2000 - 8:01 am:
Hello Elizabeth,
I agree with the assesement that many english style saddles are placed to far forward. The saddle should not rest on the scapula (shoulder), these muscles and this big flat bone need to move freely.
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 24, 2000 - 12:05 am:
Hello back Dr. Oglesby,
It was interesting also to see how far back western saddles should be placed for the same reasons. And, how important it is to use the back cinch. We are having him out this Sunday to check horses. He has been working with Dr. Mansmann (Equine Lameness)when in NC. We found out about him from Dr. Mansmann and Dr. King, both of whom you probably know of.
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Posted on Friday, Nov 24, 2000 - 9:03 am:
Hi Elizabeth--Interesting stuff you passed along & I, for one, am glad to see it. Many people seem to think that if a saddle isn't rubbing holes on the withers, it fits just fine.
I would also like to have more information on fitting western saddles. I was taught that they should also NOT place the tree over the scapula, nor over the loin. However, I've yet to see one that wasn't too long for my horses.
Please report back after your saddle fitter checks your horses.
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 26, 2001 - 11:19 am:
Hi All,
I am a new member and also a new horse owner. I have an overweight morgan mare 15.1 at her withers but then has a slightly sloped, short back. I have read all I can find about saddle fitting and Elizabeth, if you still have it, I would love to have a copy of the information you reference in your message to Kim. Reading your advice to her was very helpful to me. My email address is lperry@selective-tech.com.
The problem I'm having on most of the saddles I am trying is that I can fit my whole hand under the pommel and that the cantle is slightly lower than the pommel. I'm thinking a lollipop type pad may help, but not sure if I have too much space under the pommel. Most of what I've read says 2-3 fingers.
Would appreciate any info. Thanks!
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 26, 2001 - 10:47 pm:
Hi, Lisa,
I can picture what you describe because I have had an awful time fitting two lesson horses that have almost no withers and very wide backs. All the saddles I have tried, even the wide tree saddles, are not wide enough to keep from sitting too high over the withers and almost certainly, pressing just behind the withers. A lollipop will only concentrate the weight more behind the withers. Any saddle I put on either of the two horses (one a large pony gelding and the other a Morab mare) would slide forward over the withers after a few minutes into the lesson.
I found a used, wide tree Maxam (Thoroughgood) synthetic saddle and used it with a crupper. The crupper helped relieve some of the pressure under the pommel panels by pulling the saddle back, and kept the saddle from sliding forward during lessons. Even so, it is not an ideal fit, but seemed the least of all the evils! Synthetic saddle trees stretch quite a bit, but a too narrow synthetic can pinch cruelly, also. Unless you have the means to get a custom-made saddle for your horse, I'm not sure about how you can remedy the situation (ride bareback or use a bareback pad!). Maybe some of the folks with more saddle-fitting savvy can give you the name of a particular make of saddle for wide backed horses. Do you have a preference for a particular riding discipline?
Holly
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 27, 2001 - 10:36 am:
Hi, Holly,
Thanks for the help. I prefer saddleseat but will ride in an all purpose or dressage saddle. I basically want something comfortable for every day and maybe when I do a few local shows next year, I will find a cutback saddle that will fit her. The previous owner rode her western with no apparent saddle fitting problem and the first owner, before her, rode her in a cutback saddle and a wide dressage saddle. Either they found just the right ones, or they weren't aware of proper fit. I believe the first owner is experienced, she broke the horse very well, so I think the ones I've tried just aren't working.
I may try a wide Wintec saddle as someone told me they fit anything and they also have the changeable gullet system.
It is frustrating, though to not be able to find just the right thing. I'm presently using an all purpose that sits a little lower in the back and seems to slide side to side, not forward.
Thanks again for your help. I'll let you know if I come across an ideal fit!
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