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  Discussion on Head turned to Outside
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Member:
Dove2

Posted on Saturday, Aug 19, 2006 - 4:23 pm:

Whenever my daughter trots or canters her mare, the mare's head turns to the outside fence. For the most part, the horse continues forward (although occasionally at the canter, she'll duck her shoulder and move her body laterally).

My daughter has tried numerous training techniques, including lots of circles, lateral flexing on the ground, making the horse do a tight circle as soon as she turns her head out, but nothing seems to cause her to want to keep her head straight ahead. Has anyone had this issue and successfully resolved it? Any tips or techniques would be greatly appreciated.

For info, this is a young 4 year old mare, quite green. She's had about six owners in her first three years of life, until last Oct. when my daughter bought her. She is a very willing mare and tries to do the right thing, but getting her to understand to keep her head straight seems to be a real challenge.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Saturday, Aug 19, 2006 - 5:14 pm:

" Inside leg, Christo ! More ! Inside seatbone! Sit straight ! Inside leg ! "

(I still hear his &%*#$* voice in my sleep sometimes)
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Saturday, Aug 19, 2006 - 5:21 pm:

Tooo Funny
Member:
Dres

Posted on Saturday, Aug 19, 2006 - 5:46 pm:

I have had the same drill Christos.. It is very natural for a young horse to look to the outside....what is happening is the horse is popping out the inside shoulder Keep a steady outside contact with the rein, and ride the inside leg to the outside rein.. give and take with the inside rein.. and keep the horse moving foreward into your hands.. Practice .. Practice and more Practice.. you will be hearing the little voice too..

On the first day God created horses ,on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
Christos

Posted on Saturday, Aug 19, 2006 - 6:17 pm:

Dove2, please explain to your daughter that nobody can apply strong inside leg if he does not sit heavily on the inside seatbone.

The fact that the rider is using all his strength does not mean that the lower leg gets through, that pressure on the horse is applied.

Most beginners and children can barely break an egg with their leg against the horse's side. They sweat, they fight and still no leg is applied. Because their seat is light, they have no anchor, no base, no foundation for that leg.

It is not a matter of having strong thigh or lower leg muscles, it is a matter of having a base, a platform to support yourself in order to apply pressure.
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Sunday, Aug 20, 2006 - 12:02 am:

To get my inside (or outside) leg strong on the horse, I think of my leg as a pole that comes straight out of my hip. Kind of like stretching my leg down only on one side. For me, the effect is a pressing inside seatbone and it actually requires less leg strength than just pressing with your calf which usually ends up bringing your heel up. Of course my knee stays bent and the heel stays down . . . . its more of a mental image. I suppose you could just try it and see if it works. The result is a very strong leg that the horse has a hard time leaning into.
On the other hand, I cannot use this leg as a forward aid, it just doesnt seem to work bilateraly.
Obviously I have not analysed this too much, it is just something that works for me.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Sunday, Aug 20, 2006 - 3:58 am:

Excellent description, Shelley. That's exactly how it works (or does not).

Very often, especially at the canter, a beginner's seat will be thrown to the outside, especially on a green horse.

The green horse finds it very natural to negotiate turns by careening into them with a bend to the outside, his neck and head also turned to the outside, leading the turn with the inside shoulder.

This hollows, DrOps the horse's outside, which causes the rider's seat to slide that way. As this is a rather fast way of negotiating turns and circles, centrifugal force adds to the rider's shift to the outside.

Now what do we do when we feel we're sliding to the outside? We sit tight on the outside seatbone and step in that outside stirrup, trying to resist the forces that push us outwards.

But as Shelley describes, this is a very efficient way of applying very strong outside leg. The horse will bend even more to the outside, will probably careen more, we'll inadvertently apply more outside leg, he'll careen some more, to the point where he has to speed up to maintain his balance.

Now if we don't allow him to speed up, he only has two options. Either falling on his side or "popping" his inside shoulder and turning tighter to catch his falling weight.

How do we fix this? We remove the outside stirrup so the rider can not lean into it.

Again, this annoying voice:

"No, no, no, what are you doing? What...yeah, sure, come here! Give me one stirrup and see how it works!"
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Aug 20, 2006 - 10:57 am:

Great advice here -- thank you so much!
Member:
Corinne

Posted on Sunday, Aug 20, 2006 - 11:05 am:

I was taught something interesting lately. To get more weight onto that inside seatbone for canter departs the rider can look slightly to the outside, which automatically shifts your weight on to the inside seat bone. But I shall try DrOpping the outside iron Christos....By the way...this annoying voice....is it of past trainers in your head?
Member:
Christos

Posted on Sunday, Aug 20, 2006 - 5:48 pm:

Yes, Corinne, looking to the outside makes it easier, but I believe it is a very bad habit. Do not twist your body for the canter depart.

It DrOps your outside shoulder down and back and it pushes your inside seatbone forward rather than down, where it belongs to support a straight strike-off. It is for preventing exactly this habit that we teach beginners to hold the pommel with the outside hand.

The cue for canter is the outside leg sliding passively backwards. Just a tiny bit, not all the way to the horse's loins as we see so often. This tells the horse that we prepare for canter. The cue for strike-off is a bit more inside seatbone and a gentle "push" forward with your inside calf.

The "annoying" voice in my head belongs to my last trainer (perhaps the only trainer I ever had, it depends on how you define one).
Member:
Corinne

Posted on Sunday, Aug 20, 2006 - 10:44 pm:

Thanks for the advice.....now do you have any on how I diplomatically put that to my new coach? I don't want to learn any bad habits as I have enough of those already! LOL.
As for the strike off....it sounds like we are on the same page there!
And as for the trainer's voice in your head, I can relate...I have had four (instructors) so far because of our moves...plus multiple clinicians....I don't know who to listen too at times but it seems they all have left me with something that has benefited us and I have been able to take a hodge podge from each and find what works for us. Although it is funny when I remember what one of my British coaches (with her thick accent) said....her voice still has her accent when I remember her instructions.
Member:
Dove2

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 7:19 am:

Thank you all for your good advice. I forgot to mention my daughter is an excellent rider (probably considered an advanced intermediate) and has the strongest leg aids in town, which she uses consistently just to keep her mare going straight. She'll try using more of the weight and seat aids though and see if that helps. And removing the outside stirrup sounds interesting! We'll report back, but it may take some time. "Practice, practice and more practice." You're right, Ann! Thanks much for all the good tips!
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 9:11 am:

I agree with Christos's comments, but do have one question regarding your canter depart. I have always used the inside leg slightly back to move the horse to the outside rear leg which then pushes off to create the lead with the inside front leg. I use my outside (rail) leg on the girth area to ask for the forward acceleration. Am I totally wrong here .. it has always worked for me to get the proper lead.
DT
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 9:56 am:

Dennis,

I have always been confused on that simple aid myself. I thought that we used the outside leg back a little to shift the horses weight over, and free up the outside leg to move forward, which will then have the inside front leg also pick up the correct lead.

Hard to put into words! At least I think that is what I do, but one of my horses is very confused with canter leads, so maybe I am doing something wrong.

And don't we lift up one shoulder with the rein also?

If we don't start the lead correctly in the rear, we won't be correct in front.

Christos,

Your comments above are what I need to remember as the same horse I mention above really likes to veer to the outside when we canter on a circle. I have found that we do best when I quit "trying" to do everything and just sit there.

(think I am going to make a Christos file, and a Dennis file to keep track of training advice. Will really have my husband wondering, lol!)
Member:
Dres

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 10:05 am:

Angie,not sure what you mean by veer to the outside.. maybe you can try cantering in a shoulder fore to help correct this and help him to become straight on the circle..?

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 10:07 am:

Dennis,

You can teach the maneuver with any cue you want to use . . . I love one of the illustrations I heard from John Lyons years ago . . . If you want to cue a horse to step over by pinching the tip of his ear, then you can teach that as the cue . . . As long as we release pressure when the horse starts to give in the direction we want, then we can teach that cue, and I know that this isn't news to you.

As I was growing up, I read lots of WESTERN HORSEMAN magazines and remember reading that to get a horse to canter on a particular lead, I was supposed to turn the horse's head to the outside and cue with the inside leg . . . This was to "open up the horse's shoulder" so he could take the inside lead.

When I took my first riding lesson (after 25 years of riding) I was told that public opinion was changing about canter depart, and that western riders were following more of the Classical Dressage methods which were to keep the horse's nose bent in the direction of the circle and ask for the outside hind (the "depart" leg) to step under more quickly and push off so that he can take the inside lead more smoothly.

Since moving west from the East Coast three years ago, I have seen both ways . . . which can lead to some confusion for the horses when they switch owners . . . and can lead to some confusion in the owners if they think "this stupid horse doesn't understand how to canter."

All in all, I believe that if we watch horses move naturally and freely, we will see them take the inside lead whenever they are bent that way (unless there is a mechanical or pain issue) so the asking with the outside leg with the horse's nose tipped toward the direction of the bend, is probably easier for the horse . . . but, again, it depends on how you train the horse.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 10:32 am:

Oh, and P.S.:

At a certification clinic this past April in CA, this question came up . . . and the clinic instructor (who has been doing this for 30 years and does lessons and training with her husband) told me that "people are ignorant," and that turning the nose to the outside and "opening up the inside shoulder" can be appropriate at certain times (sorry, I forget what those "times" are) . . . and that we need to be able to use different cues for different effects . . . Wish I could remember the specifics, but maybe it sort of goes along with what you were saying in the post about the horse not wanting to move forward on trail . . . sort of . . . different cues for different problems.
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 11:03 am:

That makes me think back. I do the aids as Christos says. However when I was doing a dressage lesson when he was young and green. He would tip his head slightly to the outside no matter how strong an inside leg I used. This was circle work) She told me also forget the outside just passive. Then for an instant, swing my inside leg back and give him a good squeeze if that did not work a good kick till he moved his hind over which would make it also impossible to keep his head to the outside. Then instantly put your leg where its supposed to be. I asked her why the correct aids did not work and she said all horses are different and some you need to do a bit more a bit different till they get it. I only had to do this a few times till he got it but it really worked.
As for the canter departure fortunately my horse has always got it without me teaching him. However I read a good way which I have tried, and it works for a horse that has a hard time getting it or especially for a rider that tends to leen or look down in the direction of the lead you want. Not good. Simply use the opposite hand of the lead you want and reach back and touch his rump keeping reins loose and use the aids as Christos says this stops you from accidentally putting weight on the shoulder making it very hard for the horse to take the correct lead. Don't forget this is only to help you teach your horse and to stop you from using your body wrong. Once you both get the feel of it, you wont need to do it.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 11:53 am:

Yikes . . . sorry . . . just read the initial post which was one of the ones I didn't receive a couple of days ago . . .
Poor horse . . . SIX OWNERS in THREE YEARS????!!!!!
No WONDER she is confused . . . especially, if every other owner did things differently . . .
Decide what you want to see and how you want to ask . . . and give the horse TIME . . . lots of TIME . . . and be patient . . . and just be consistent. You can train her to the way you want, but she may only be doing what someone else ingrained in her . . .
Member:
Green007

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 12:23 pm:

Hi,

As Holly said, any cue can get a horse to canter if you just teach it. What I do depends on the horse. On a very green horse that just needs canter miles, I tend to use outside leg and rein so that the horse doesn't overload the inside shoulder ("lateral aids"). I am not too concerned with leads at this point, but more concerned with balance. However, turning the head to the outside helps balance as it keeps the horse off of the inside shoulder. If the inside shoulder is overloaded, the horse will have a difficult time picking up the correct lead because green horses tend to pick up the canter with their front legs at first and will chose the lead that is best supported by the diagonal pair (in the case of an overloaded inside shoulder, the horse may choose to pick up the "wrong" lead so that its overloaded inside foreleg is supported by its outside hind leg in the second beat of the canter).

Once the horse is better balanced, I will gradually move to "diagonal aids" which is a rapid combination of outside leg followed by inside leg and rein. Outside leg asks for the canter depart to start with the outside hind leg. Inside leg in quick succession asks for the inside hind leg. Inside rein finishes the lead. It is like you as a rider are "cantering" with your own body (outside "hind" followed by inside "hind" followed by inside "front leg," which is actually your inside rein).

The other thing that is very helpful once the horse is better balanced is to time the canter aids with the horse's hind legs. I like to ask with my outside leg when the horse's outside hind leg is still weight bearing and just about to leave the ground. This does not work if the horse is still starting his canter lead from the front legs. If he is starting his canter from the front legs, it is your job to do whatever it takes to get the weight off of of his inside front leg so that he can take the correct lead. At first, that may mean overuse of the outside rein. Eventually, it will become the horse's bend around your inside leg that correctly unloads the weight on the inside shoulder.

Leg yields, circle spirals, serpentines, circles and shoulder fore on a long rein at the walk and with "age appropriate" rein contact at the trot will all help your horse learn to get his weight off of his inside foreleg for the more advanced canter departs. Once he is correctly bent around your inside leg, you can move on to diagonal aids which are just a more advanced way to get the weight off of his inside shoulder so he is free to canter on the correct lead.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 1:43 pm:

The reason to teach canter departs with the inside leg firmly on the girth and the outside leg a tiny bit behind is that we want a straight, smooth and balanced transition and a correct canter from the first canter step.

Crookedness is not always apparent in the circle, but becomes very obvious on cantering straight lines.

Most horses prefer to canter straight lines with their head to their left and their hindquarters to the right, popping their right shoulder. The horse positions itself at an angle to the direction he travels, crooked.

We correct crookedness by introducing bend. If we ask for no bend, the horse will choose the one that he finds suitable at the moment. So even on straight lines, let's say on left canter, we ask for a very slight bend to the left.

The inside leg on the girth and inside seatbone is what produces and maintains bend.

So with the horse bent correctly, we ask for a canter depart with our inside leg and inside seatbone. The horse pushes with his outside hind to accelerate forward, then flexes the inside hind and puts it correctly under his body to balance his weight.

Truly, this is what happens with a trained horse that will maintain bend around the inside leg without support. The green horse, however, usually has no desire to chip in some extra work in order to make our ride smoother. He will not flex his inside hind and carry weight with it. He will let his hindquarters drift to the outside instead, become crooked and push with both hind legs.

We prevent this by sliding our outside leg a bit backwards. The horse knows from his introduction to leg cues that this means he should bring his hindquarters in. If he resists, we tap the inside hind with the whip. Remember, though he objects bringing his hindquarters in, it is the lack of flexion and activity of the inside hind that causes the problem, so that's what we want to correct. The cause, not the symptom.

Of course, with a horse that will accept and maintain a correct bend naturally, you can teach canter departs any way you want.

As the horse's training advances, many years later, inside seatbone alone will be enough to produce and maintain bend, and just sitting on the other seatbone will produce a beautiful flying change.

We reach that by increasing the horse's proficiency with systematic work, so slowly but surely he does not need our legs supporting him and pushing him here and there.
Member:
Dove2

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 1:53 pm:

Thanks, everyone. This has been a fascinating discussion of our problem at the canter. What sort of techniques apply when the horse *trots* with her head facing outside, and the rider posting?
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 2:10 pm:

Opening up, unloading etc the inside shoulder by turning the horse's head to the outside ?

Sorry, the people who told you this are horribly misinformed.

Turning the horse's head to the outside throws his weight through the inside shoulder and the horse has to step in with the inside fore to catch it. This is loading the shoulder, not unloading it, and forcing the horse to initiate canter with the inside fore.

It is a trick that works, but not one that promotes balance and coordination.

Common stunt work: You have to turn the horse's head to the outside to throw him down. No way you can throw him if he's bent correctly.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 2:18 pm:

Same problem, Dove2, same technique.

Enforce inside aids, ie inside leg, inside rein. Insist that the inside hind flexes and steps under, use the whip if it doesn't.
Member:
Green007

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 3:10 pm:

Yes Christos, outside rein for an already overloaded shoulder does sound awful, is incorrect and isn't the best thing to do over the long term as it tends to "jackknife" the horse, causing overbending in the neck, a crooked body, and the exact overloading the shoulder we all want to avoid. I agree with you, but when it comes to the supergreenies, I find that ridiculously exaggerated, wide open rein aids are the best tool available to show a horse where you want it to go until the horse understands the finer points of moving away from the leg and bend.

First things first, the horse needs to learn to move away from the leg. The bend comes later. Teaching bend can be done on the ground by pushing horse over with your hands, making sure your hands are in the exact spot you will be visiting later with your legs. Next, I like to face a horse toward a wall and ask for a 1/4 turn on the forehand, moving the horse away from my leg and using the wall as a tool so I don't have to pull back on the reins quite so much. Next, I try leg yields/sidepasses against the wall, again with horse facing the wall so the wall becomes a tool and my rein aids can stay relatively soft.

Once the horse understands that my leg at the girth along with "allowing" hips means go forward and my leg slightly behind the girth with "non-allowing" hips means go sideways, I make things more subtle by doing what Shelley does - making my leg into a pole around which the horse must bend.

Next, I try circles where I ask the horse to yield from my inside leg (spiral out/make the circle bigger) and then yield from my outside leg (spiral in/make the circle smaller). After a while, the horse starts to understand the concept of bending around the "inside leg" and all turns become easier. If at any point the horse forgets and lays down on his inside shoulder, I simply half halt and request one or two brief steps of leg yield away from the loaded shoulder to remind him not to lay down on my leg. Over time, they get it.

PS - Flying changes from the weight of your seatbones alone is a feat of accomplishment that is years away from these humble beginnings!
Member:
Green007

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 3:39 pm:

PS - I know I will be tarred and feathered for saying this because it is the antithesis of classical dressage. However, if I train a horse who is very hard mouthed and heavy shouldered and who just WON'T bend around my inside leg due to years of doing this bad habit, I will use an indirect rein to support my inside leg for a few days until the horse gets the idea. Once the horse gets the idea, I will go back to the more correct direct reins and inside leg/outside rein connection.

The chief argument against using indirect rein to bend a horse is that you are breaking the all important connection between hind legs, back, withers, neck and mouth and are intentionally making the horse crooked. This is why I only use this method briefly as a training tool, only on spoiled horses, only to teach them to get off the inside shoulder, and only on horses that are so unbalanced as to feel they are literally going to lay down on me. I wouldn't use it on a green horse unless the leaning has already become an ingrained habit, but wanted to mention it as a tool.

OK, I'm ready. My flame suit is on!
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 3:54 pm:

No flame throwing from this contingency, Debbie.
There are no "RIGHT" ways with horses or students . . . In good teaching we are always seeking to improve our own methods and continually looking for the easiest way for the STUDENT to understand what it is we are trying to teach . . . and we are looking for the way to make the learning experience the most enjoyable (and with horses . . . the most safe). All learning doesn't have to be "touchy-feely," and good work is just that . . . W-O-R-K . . . but we always should maintain the best interests of our students at heart . . . In our striving to help them be the best they can be, we experience being the best WE can be . . . so everyone is a winner . . . and that's the aim.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 5:13 pm:

It's no war of Schools, Debbie, we're just comparing notes.

Each and every one of us has his methods, likes and dislikes, for the good reason of serving his own particular situation. No universal right or wrong.

I am only saying that turning the horse's head to the outside, especially on a young horse careening in a canter circle, throws him seriously out of balance and makes him depend totally on the inside fore to prevent falling.

If that leg gives, slips or stumbles, he'll certainly fall on his side.

This is not the case when he is bent to the inside.
Member:
Green007

Posted on Monday, Aug 21, 2006 - 5:24 pm:

Christos,

While I agree in theory, using direct inside rein on a horse who is already leaning to the inside just makes them cut the turn all the faster, whether you are "making a post" with your inside leg or not. It takes time and patience, and sometimes open outside rein to lead the horse the way it needs to go while it is still learning what inside leg means.

The indirect rein, on the other hand, is no more than a shortcut to teach a horse to unlock the inside shoulder quickly. Actually, it is a technique hunter riders use regularly in place of what I consider to be correct bending. Even George Morris advocates the use of indirect rein to get a horse off the inside shoulder! And it is not just a training phase with the hunters, either. It is a way of life all the way through the rated shows. It is not correct flatwork, but then again these people are running and jumping and just want a quick fix on the flat so they can get on to the fun of jumping.
Member:
Erika

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 22, 2006 - 3:44 pm:

If the horse trips, why don't you just pull him back up with your reins
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 22, 2006 - 4:34 pm:

Nice timing Erika !! Got a good laugh myself
Member:
Christos

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 22, 2006 - 6:00 pm:

Erika, supporting a stumbling horse's sinking head and pulling his head up with the reins are two different things. I never suggested that the latter is possible or advisable.

Twisting and ridiculing my words is cheap.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 22, 2006 - 6:19 pm:

Christos, please don't take offense. A sense of humor is a very valuable thing when discussing training methods and when there is such a varied group of people doing the discussing . . . and humor will keep the peace in relationships, both horse and human, better than anything I can think of.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 22, 2006 - 6:54 pm:

And, Erika, your quip really was quite clever . . . even my husband got a chuckle . . . and for the record, the sparring between you and Christos kept us quite entertained during the discussion about stumbling down hills.
As a recovering perfectionist, I can say that I have found a lot of freedom and humor in not taking myself as seriously as I used to do . . . life is too short . . .
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 22, 2006 - 6:55 pm:

Christos . I agree with your methods. I was told to use the method at one stage that Debbie says. It did not work for me. Not saying anything is right or wrong. By the way I got to ride my horse for the first time in a few weeks just at a walk and we did a steep incline (thats all we have.) And supporting him with the rein did help. He did not stumble, but he did seem to appreciate the help. So I take back what I said that a loose rein is the way to go.
Member:
Erika

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 22, 2006 - 7:21 pm:

Oh no, Christos! No offense intended! Just my feeble attempt at humor after our in-depth physics debate.
If I had said it in person, it would have come with a little poke in the ribs and a wink...
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 5:52 am:

No offense taken, then. But really, I find nothing funny or light with the subject of a horse falling on a rider.

There was no physics debate, Erika, you are trying to understand and describe the horse with terms of static balance alone. This is not possible. Even the standing horse is not inanimate and rigid, it is a system of incredibly complicated 3-D dynamics.

Again, understanding, correcting and supporting a horse that is losing his balance can save you (and the horse) from fatal injury. This is no light matter.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 6:01 am:

Katrina, be careful that you're not holding his head all the time, it may teach him to lean on the bit.

Frequent half halts to adjust his speed and balance is all you need.

Again, if he stumbles, lean back and hold those reins firmly so he can lean on the bit for support.
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 6:49 am:

You got it Christos will do.
Member:
Erika

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 8:02 am:

You know, Christos, I have read some pretty humorous stuff written by you that involved some dangerous situations.
Again, I never intended any offense to you. It's okay to lighten up on me now.
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 8:46 am:

Erika .... "I don't care who you are, that there was funny". Quite frankly, when I woke up after the "long and low" discussion I was beginning to wonder if anyone had a sense of humor.
DT
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 9:57 am:

Dennis,

I think anyone who posts on here must have a sense of humor, and be pretty strong emotionally too!!! If you stop to think that what we put here is read by HOW MANY world wide.....shudder!

I wish DrO would give us more icons so that we can show emotions a little better, that might help. Of course we all have bad hair days don't we?

I want to add that I think 99% of the folks that belong to HA do a great job of responding to others with 99.9% positive advice/comments. There have been a few misunderstandings, thus I can't say 100% of the folks.

O.K., I'll shut my keyboard down now before I get in any deeper, LOL!!!
Member:
Green007

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 10:52 am:

We are all passionate horsefolks, and sometimes things can can be misunderstood, is all.

As far as sense of humor goes, anyone who can glue backgammon pieces onto his instructors horse is alright in my book.

Huge hugs to all!
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 11:11 am:

Ahhh . . . but an INSTRUCTOR who can laugh when the student glues the backgammon pieces on HIS horse . . . Now THAT's worth something special in my book.
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 11:23 am:

Thats right,
How does the saying go,
They can dish it out but can they . . . ?
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 2:15 pm:

Nothing personal, Erika, but no, I won't lighten up on you.

I'll stay after you until you get that %$@&# balance thing figured out .

You are all correct, I do lose my sense of humour when we talk balance. I'll try to fix that.

Member:
Green007

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 3:01 pm:

But if a child is riding you piggy back, and that small piece of baling twine in your mouth is being held too tightly by this child, yet the twine appears to be the only thing keeping you from falling flat on your face, is it still ok to do another shot of Tequila?
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 3:36 pm:

Only if the child is riding balanced seat . . .

Good job, guys. Let's party.
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 3:47 pm:

Only if you have salt and lime!
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 3:58 pm:

That is perfectly correct Debra .. however you must be aware that upon completion of the tequila, you will most certainly fall on your face anyway.
DT
Member:
Christos

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 4:02 pm:

Playing rodeo games after a few shots of Tequila is no child's activity, Debbie .
Member:
Canter

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 4:06 pm:

Of course it's OK...after the second shot of tequila, you won't give a #@$%$ if you fall or not!
Member:
Dres

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 6:19 pm:

I have to say buck the kid off your back and lets belly up to the water hole...

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 6:51 pm:

Ann! Good one.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 8:27 pm:

Speaking of balance, we also have to balance seriousness with humor!!

I'd rather eat that worm that drink tequila....yuck!! But I'd enjoy watching anyone who has drank some, try to ride!!!
Member:
Erika

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 23, 2006 - 10:07 pm:

I'd chime in here...but I already started drinking with the "amateur farrier" thread...too drunk to add anything......
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Saturday, Aug 26, 2006 - 10:14 am:

Could someone please remind me of the difference between indirect and direct rein.
thank you
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Saturday, Aug 26, 2006 - 12:19 pm:

Hi, Lori,

Think of it this way . . . If you want to turn right and use the rein on the right with your right hand, then you are direct reining.

If you want to turn right, and you use the LEFT rein and your left hand, by putting a touch or pressure on the left side of the horse's neck, you are INdirect reining . . .

That is VERY simplified.
Technically, you should only DIRECT rein with a snaffle bit or shankless bit. It puts a direct pull on the right corner of the horse's lips and against the right bars of the horse's mouth, as well as PUSHING against the LEFT corner of the horse's mouth/face to give a simple signal, "move your nose to the right."
You can use INDIRECT rein with either a shankless (snaffle) or shank (leverage; curb) bit. Either way we aim to teach the horse to respond to the lightest amount of pressure, which, when we are talking pressure from the bit, is the weight of the rein or even just the movement of the hand. (I could talk bits for hours . . . so I'd better stop here.)
Member:
Green007

Posted on Monday, Aug 28, 2006 - 11:07 am:

With Direct rein, the action of the rein aid is straight backward with a straight line from bit to rein to hand to elbow. The intention of the aid is toward the rider's or horse's inside hip or leg.

With Indirect rein, the action of the rein is more sideways than backwards. It is used in the direction of the horse's outside shoulder, leg or hip depending on how intense you want the aid to be. The rein should not cross the horse's neck. The rider can keep the inside hand straight or curve the fist as if turning a car key for greater effect, or move the entire arm sideways in the direction of the horse's neck and withers, sometimes touching the neck or withers for more effect. It is the sideways leverage action that gets the horse off of its inside shoulder. It is like a "rein yield" instead of a leg yield with the rein pressure directed toward the horse's outside shoulder and hip.

PS - it is a lot like a modified, softer pulley rein.
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Monday, Aug 28, 2006 - 2:53 pm:

Shelley, while riding on Sat my mare was ignoring my leg, I thought of your description of the post from the hip. Tried it. It worked instantly. Very cool.

rein aid, I use both ways, now maybe I can keep the names straight.
Thanks.
Member:
Ejaco

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 3, 2007 - 8:11 pm:

I have been arguing with my instructor about the correct aids to use on turns and came across this posting. As I understand my instructor (whose background is 'instinctive' natural horsemanship)he wants me to lift the inside rein directly upward to tilt the horse's head in the direction of the turn, while using the inside leg for impulsion and only using the outside leg behind the girth if the hindquarters go out. I am not allowed to use the outside rein at all as he says the horse will only lean on it and use it to move sideways to the outside. He does not want me to give the turning aid until we are 1 metre from the marker (eg the corner of the dressage arena). I am confused by this as firstly he appears to be asking me to do something between a direct and an indirect rein and secondly he is asking for a virtually right-angle turn when I have read that the corners of the arena should be ridden as if on a volte/circle (the size of the circle depending on the level of the horse). When I argue with him he tells me he always got good marks for his corners in dressage tests as he rode right into them, while most people cut them. I find it very difficult to achieve the turn as my horse seems to turn his head and neck only and throw his hind end out. My instructor says this is because I am holding the rein rather than doing a quick pull up and release. Which I may be doing. But I do wonder about the physics of this action - ie what effect it is having on the horse's lateral flexion and direction. Also does anyone agree with riding right into the corners in the way my instructor says? Finally, I would love to know what the outside rein is really for, as my instructor seems to have no use for it, whereas all the dressage books I have read say it is critical. I should say I ride english and want to pursue dressage and jumping. I am at a point where I feel I need an english instructor as I am not sure my horse and I can achieve the manouevres required in those sports using my instructor's methods - but I'm too ignorant of the outcomes of the different teaching methods to really know...
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 3, 2007 - 8:51 pm:

Hi Elizabeth,
It might have been easier if you started your own new post. yes it becomes so confusing. I know some natural horseman that start this way , but as soon as the horse learns to yield they also use the outside rein to keep the horse balanced. I do both natural horseman ship and also love dressage. I do think you need to use the outside rein to keep him balanced and supported. So I for one do not agree with what your trainer is saying. The natural horseman that I like use the outside rein for balance. I hope someone else can shed some light on this for you
Member:
Mcbizz

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2007 - 5:02 pm:

Elizabeth, I think I would look for a different instructor. Maybe ask this one if you should just remove the outside rein since he thinks it's of no use....
Member:
Canter

Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 8:23 am:

The outside rein IS important. It regulates speed/stride, is used to keep the horse from falling onto his outside shoulder, it's part of a half halt, it's the steady rein as you soften with the inside rein....and so much more.

I don't understand what your instructor is trying to do with you, Elizabeth. You are correct in that the corner should be ridden like a volte rather than at right angles. But, is your horse falling in on the corners thus the trainer asking you to ride them deeper to keep the horse correct? Much of what you describe doesn't seem right to me at all, although it is difficult to judge as we can't see what's happening. I would question this trainer carefully. Explain to him what you have read and what you know to be correct. If he cannot explain the reasoning behind his methods (for example, I've been made to "over" ride an excercise to correct a bad habit) and why he's asking you to do them, it's time to find someone else.
Member:
Dwinans

Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 4:09 pm:

I recently had a lesson on using the outside rein the other day. My horse was completely falling into the corner so my trainer had me do "square" corners. I used both outside rein and outside leg to do an almost counter bend around the corner. After a couple of times around I rounded the corners and he was an angel. It worked beautifully!
Member:
Amara

Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 5:36 pm:

in that ideal natural horsemanship world your horse should remain balanced without needing the outside rein.. and if you have taken the years of training in all the ground work and RP training and basic undersaddle training then he's right...
fast forward to real world where it sounds like you havent gone this route (and i'm not saying your wrong or anything!), but you havent taken those slow boring years to do something that you probably didnt need to do with your horse.. hence, he's not setup to do it the way your instructor wants him to..
and your instructor should recognize this and stop trying to get you to torture your horse by giving him a quick pull to get him out of the corner just before he runs over the rail...
sounds like you need another trainer who understands the way you and your horse work together...
tho i do agree with his bit about getting deep into corners...but this entirely depends on the training and level of the horse and rider...
and for the record, my horses are all naturally horsemanship trained and dont "need" an outside rein to support them thru a deep corner, but if i want it to be right each and every time a little support from the outside rein goes a long way...
and btw if his horses were really correct he wouldnt need to use the outside leg to keep the horse from drifting out..
Member:
Mwebster

Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2007 - 8:29 pm:

Christos, I always appreciate your posts. Thanks for continuing to provide such great advice.
Melissa
Member:
Erika

Posted on Saturday, Jan 6, 2007 - 8:58 am:

I think it is sometimes difficult to give advice on this sort of question because of the personal interpretations involved.

One person's version of riding into the corners could mean extreme angles and discomfort for the horse, but another could be as Melissa Boschwitz states, "this entirely depends on the training and level of the horse and rider... my horses are all naturally horsemanship trained and dont "need" an outside rein to support them thru a deep corner..."

I had some jumping lessons a while back where my horse kept drifting in on the corners. One's tendency is to use the outside rein to prevent that, but when I did what the instructor said--to use only the inside rein and leg, and support with outside leg--I got a beautiful deep corner every time without fighting the horse.

Now this was on one of their show jumpers, not a badly ridden horse with bad habits, so the instructor just wanted to show me that if I did things right, the horse would do things right.

So I don't know if Elizabeth's trainer is asking her to "jerk" her inside rein, or simply use it appropriately. If he is asking you to cue one meter from the corner, there is a big difference if you are doing this at the walk, or at a gallop. It should simply be an appropriate distance to teach your horse not to anticipate the turns and go before you want him to.

Are you getting good results with his training? Is this the only area where you disagree? Does it seem abusive or just contrary to your own instincts? Elizabeth, if this is the only real point of contention, I would say to try it for a while and see if the results are positive. But don't do anything that you would consider to be abusive to your horse.

Let us know how things end up, will you?
Member:
Ejaco

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 10, 2007 - 10:54 pm:

Thanks to everyone who offered comments on my questions about the use of the outside rein and the correct aids and method for turning a corner. I have since had another lesson with my instructor, with whom I am having a disagreement regarding the use of the outside rein. I clarified what he wants me to do and it goes like this. I should add that I am working on my 2 ex-racehorses who I got straight off the track and we are in the early stages of retraining. The aids are: ride up the arena with no/minimal contact. Slow the horse down a few metres from the corner. 1 metre from the arena corner lift the inside rein directly up and take up soft contact (I believe this is a minimal 'open' rein). This will tilt the horse's head to the inside and he will follow his nose. Inside leg on girth. Leave outside leg off horse and only put on behind girth if his hindquarters swing out. Leave outside rein alone. If the horse's outside shoulder falls out fix it by leaning slightly back and lifting inside rein higher.

As I said previously my instructor is an "instinctive" natural horseman and I believe he does not read books. His only training is in natural horsemanship. He has done dressage however this was disabled dressage and I suspect some unorthodox techniques may be allowed which would be marked down in mainstream dressage competitions.

I asked him why he did not use the outside rein and he said because it didn't work for him. He also said he has seen my horse fall onto the outside shoulder when I use the outside rein, thus arguing that it is not just him it doesn't work for. However I suspect I simply used it wrongly and not consistently enough, also that particular horse is very stiff as a result of a back injury.

I have since been "surfing the web" and found some fantastic articles on outside rein (check out https://pages.sbcglobal.net/bielikov/dressage/ and https://www.horse-sense.org/index.phtml)

I suppose the bottom line for me is that the literature says the outside rein is vital and actually has the opposite effect my instructor claims,ie, that it stops the energy created by the inside leg "blowing out" at the outside shoulder and channels it back to the hindquarters for impulsion.

Some of the articles give some insight into how you might need to approach things differently with an untrained horse (eg https://www.horsemagazine.com/CLINIC/B/BUTTON_BOB/basics1.htm). However none suggest that the outside rein should be done away with in dressage, although some of the articles suggest that the same is not true of disciplines such as cutting (where the horse is responsible for his own balance) or other activities where you are not constantly asking the horse to change his balance. This has some reverberations for me with my instructor's comments about the horse "taking the responsibility to stay in the pace you set" and his instruction to slow my horse before the corner. In dressage you never stay in one pace for very long and you are marked down for changing the tempo (eg slowing down before a corner). Perhaps this is why the aids need to be much more specific in dressage about where they "put" each part of the horse's body? Not that I am arguing about the horse taking responsibility for staying in the gait/pace you put him into, it just appears to me to be a goal in the early stage of training, but by no means the end goal. (Maybe I need to start a new post about the differences between natural horsemanship and classical riding!)

A couple of you have suggested I change trainers and I am thinking of doing so, mainly because I have joined the dressage and jumping clubs. Unfortunately there are few choices in instructors where I live and I fear the dressage instructors may not be much more knowledgeable and may be more rigid in their views. There's nothing worse than being told to do something because "that's how you do it".
Member:
Erika

Posted on Thursday, Jan 11, 2007 - 11:13 am:

Elizabeth, I am not a dressage rider by any means, but I wonder if you are looking for higher level cues for your horse, and the instructor may be starting very basic?

..."my instructor's comments about the horse "taking the responsibility to stay in the pace you set"..." is what struck me. Is it possible your ex-racers tend to rush into the corners? He may be using the corners as a cue for the horse to slow himself down so you don't need to use the reins as much. This helps teach the horse that it's easier to maintain a steady tempo that can get him around those corners without relying on the reins to hold him there.

I would talk to him (the trainer) and see if his cornering method is for ever, or just to reach a certain point before adding the outside rein.

Some instructors are not good at telling the full story for not wanting to confuse the student. But you sound like you would rather know the how's and why's of his method, right?

Just my thoughts, but only you can know if you are comfortable with his methods. If you don't feel you are progressing, then it may be time for a change.
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