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Discussion on Five-year-old "defiance?"
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Member:
Heidim
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 26, 2006 - 11:59 pm:
This one is for all you trainers out there who have worked with enough horses to recognize common behaviors. In a recent thread (although I can't remember enough of the details to identify which one), someone DrOpped that five-year-old horses tend to "rebel" in relation to their human counterparts. I found this especially interesting as I was just about to throw in the towel on an otherwise super mule that we've raised since a two-year-old. Granted, I did not know what I was getting into when we bought her. It seemed simple enough to let her grow up some more and then send her to a trainer for a few months and then ride her more to cement that training. What I've run into instead is the equivalent of an intermittent balky teenager. Oh, I can get her to mind me, but not without a hassle every few rides. She can be very pig headed when she wants her way, and it's not a whole lot of fun to live through her treatment. Recently, a member of my saddle club pointed out that this mare does not respect me. So, I got after her (the mare, not the saddle club member) and, voila, she's started to respond better all the way around. My 12-year-old daughter is finding the same when she stands her ground. I can't help but think that the mare's age has had something to do with my frustration with her. I'm very good at retraining older, spoiled horses to behave. I've got a little 15-year-old mule sitting in my pasture now that was a combination prankster/basket case when we got him and now takes ribbons in 4-H and mule shows. However, this younger mare has been a whole different case. So, here's my question outright: do young equines "mentally" go through developmental stages just like humans (i.e., infancy, toddlerhood, elementary age, teenagers, etc.) If so, what can I expect from each age? I ask because I'm also raising a yearling gelding. It's going very well with him. At the same time, I'd like to know if I can expect similar behavior from him down the line.
One thing I do want to point out is that we knew little of the mare's background before we bought her, and she already knew her strength when we did. Conversely, the yearling was born on our place, and I've worked with him off and one since his birth.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 27, 2006 - 8:30 am:
Our site is full of discussions about horses between 4 and 7 who after acting well under saddle for several years have begun to rebel and usually they write us looking for possible medical problems. I think the reason is that they forget these are young horses whose training and experience is not well established by a few years. The horse easily becomes over-faced with new and challenging experiences and behavioral problems result. I have come to call it "jumping the rut".
Training horses is a lot like making a rut in the ground with a wagon wheel. It starts out as nothing more than a visual line, easily crossed and left. With time and use, and time and use only, the rut gets deeper and deeper and harder to leave. For most horses younger than 8 the rut is just not going to be very deep.
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 27, 2006 - 9:21 am:
Great analogy, Dr. O.!
I'm certainly not a trainer, but every young horse I've worked with has gone through a "rebellious stage" - often more than one such stage. The more intelligent the horse, it seems like the greater the "rebellion" sometimes. Just hang in there and she'll come around. I think it's just a normal stage of development.
It's my opinion that horses are very much like children in that they go through growth stages just like humans. The "terrible twos" are usually about around the age of two, like humans. But, they seem to question you a lot until they reach around age 6, at least with Arabs.
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 27, 2006 - 2:41 pm:
I absolutely agree about the "stages" of horses being like children's "growing up stages." One of my Arabs even went through a difficult stage at about 8 years old (but it didn't last as long as the earlier stages). As with children, it is hard to know exactly when or how long the stages will be. Horses 9 - 10 years old and above seem to be more reliable, and though they may have a bad day now and then, the "growing up stages" seem to be over.
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 27, 2006 - 6:32 pm:
horses (and mules) are technically not fully matured until about 8 years of age. some growth plates dont close until 6 years, and muscle mass may continue to fill out for a few years after that... these are in response to physical and hormonal changes...
considering that a horse isnt mature physically until 8 and is going thru changes, it's pretty reasonable to assume mental changes as well...
in a wild setting they are not considered "adult" members of the herd until after 4, even tho they can reproduce before that...
at 5 she knows her place in the herd-at least she thinks she does- and she thinks it's above you.. that's why she tests you..
mules especially need to feel that their "human" has earned their respect before they behave.. as they are typically underreactive getting their respect takes more effort then say something like an arab!
this change is normal, and she may throw a few others at you as well... mules tend towards a longer life span, so the true maturity age could be even later then with a horse
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Aug 28, 2006 - 2:24 pm:
I remember one of the old time trainers discussing this issue. I don't recall the exact quotes, but it goes something like this.
Horse as foal similar to infant to 1yo human
Yearling .... 2 to 4yo human (learns fast but have to keep reinforcing)
2 to 3yo horse ... 5 to 10yo human (still anxious to learn but easily distracted)
4yo horse ... teenager
5 to 6yo horse ... young adult
7yo and up .... mature adult.
He says he works with young horses through age 3 ... when they turn 4 (teenager) he turns them out and brings them back at 5.
Not exact I'm sure, but thought it funny .. and unfortunately, very realistic.
DT
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Aug 28, 2006 - 2:39 pm:
Thats funny Dennis, It sounds pretty spot on to me. I think the teenage years are the hardest from horses to kids.
Katrina
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Monday, Aug 28, 2006 - 10:06 pm:
Lets see. . . . . I think it was the fall of her fourth year that my mare unloaded me like a bag of rocks.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 7:42 am:
Hmmm....well, like kids there are charming periods and trying times.
I noticed my 4 yr old silly timid horse is acting really sweet now. Almost has me worried, like the calm before the storm!
My husband is a firm believer in the concept that our kids brains don't develope the "rational" part of their brains until age 25. (I think that includes the common sense part of the brain too, LOL!)
So to apply that to horses, would be about age 7 I suspect.
Great quotes Dennis.
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Member:
Sjeys
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 10:02 am:
Actually, Dennis's story about the trainer who turned them out during their teenage year (4yo) brings up a question for me. I like the idea of not really riding a horse seriously or in competion until at least age 5...It just sounds like it gives them more time to grow up physically and mentally. Is there anything wrong with waiting this long as long as they have good groundwork and good manners and have been introduced to saddle and rider maybe for a few months at a time the two years prior?
Is it ever too long to wait to put a horse under saddle that will be a competition horse. I know you would miss all the "young horse" competitions, but just curious.
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 10:06 am:
OK, Now you all have me worried. My 4 year old gelding is an absolute doll. When he was 3, however, I didn't pass his tests so he very slowly and subtly became more and more belligerent, until I finally realized what was going on and got after him. I realize there are "young horse" antics, but how much really depends upon the human counterpart?
I think Dr. O's statement about overfacing a horse is really significant. If we are sensitive to our horse's ability and guide the horse along, will they still develop an attitude? Am I and Angie in the calm before a storm or are we just that good?  
BTW, my theory is that adolescents actually have too much of a hormone which suppresses the rational brain. As it slowly clears away, the more cautious side is uncovered. In other words, it's there all along, just needs to be uncovered!
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 10:46 am:
In my opinion, we ask too much or our horses too soon. I have never agreed with competition levels on a 3 or 4 year old horse. I will trail ride on a limited basis with the younger horses, but do not recommend heavy physical and mental competition at this stage. I think that is one reason we see so many "blow ups" in these younger horses because we push them into so many things they are not mentally able to handle yet.
When I explain this to clients, I always hear that "they race thoroughbreds at 3 don't they". I have 2 answers here 1.) race horses are not exactly trained to deal with a lot of issues, they are just supposed to run, safely stopping and turning is not a priority. 2.) Do you ever see any racehorses competing at age 6 or 7? If we push them too hard, we can break them down, not only physically, but mentally as well. I like to think our horses will be our partners well into old age, so who cares if he can't "do it all" at age 4.
Your 4 year olds can be absolute dolls but if you push them too hard to handle situations they are not mentally capable of absorbing, they may react like idiots. Usually not a sign of a bad horse, but .......
DT
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Member:
Mzollars
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 11:40 am:
Well said Dennis.
I have a 5 year old that I've just started the "serious" training on. I've owned the mare since she was a weanling. I did all the ground work up until she was a two year old, taking it one day at a time. At two, I trailered her with my other mare a little, taking her to some of the local events and so on. Just getting her used to the atmosphere. From three on, I basically let her be a horse, light trail riding, a little ground work and LOTS of turnout. I couldn't ask for a more willing horse at this point. She pays attention and loves to learn. I will do this with all my young ones in the future. I like having a horse who loves their job. I don't want one that hates it after the age of 7.
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 12:27 pm:
i was taught to start them with the very very basics at around age 3, and then turn them out for a year or more till they grow up... the idea was to not start the horse so late that they knew their own strength and what they could get away with...
nowadays i dont believe in any of that, and find if you have the proper respect from a horse then the whole "breaking" process is easy, no matter the age...
i had the opportunity to START an arab mare at age 9. at that point she was BARELY halter broke... but her maturity level was so high that i didnt have any of the young horse goofiness... she was a piece of cake to break and went on to be a great competition horse for years
also broke all of her siblings at the same time. they also had limited handling. ages 4, 6 and 7... all were easy...
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 12:52 pm:
Melissa we also had an arab brood mare that was about 13 when we first put a saddle on her. She was unable to be a brood mare any more so we leased her out and went on to win a few endurance rides. She was calm and gentle the whole time while learning under saddle. I thought that her age might make it more difficult at the time but she was much easier than the youngsters, not that being young makes them hard to train. I also was asked to ride a big belgium brood mare. I thought she was broke to ride. I put the saddle on her and was ready to hop up and they said by the way she is only broke to harness. Thanks I thought,  well she did not mind the saddle so I hopped on up other than not being sure what I wanted for a little while she as soon as she new what you wanted acted like she had been ridden her whole life. She actually went out on a trail ride her 3rd ride ever and loved it.
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 3:59 pm:
In January, I bought a (then) coming four year old. He had been ridden on the trail pretty extensively as a three year old, and I have not really done anything with him this year as a four year old, because he is definitely in those "teenage" years. LOL
I haven't ridden him, but I have had a saddle on him occassionally, and have hauled him to a bunch of new, different places. He's in a growth spurt right now, so I'm just feeding him good, and allowing him to grow. I just hope his attitude gets better by next year. 
My plan is to next spring or fall really pick up his training and get him going, as a five year old.
Nicole
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 6:04 pm:
Dennis,
Do have horses come in for training at all ages? Do you prefer a specific age? Do you train your own horses different than a clients? Meaning would you do your DT training program for your own horse as a 2 yr old, or 3? Or later even?
I've personally never saddled my horses until late in their second year. Or gotten on them til they were close to 3. Then it was just really basic stuff.
Today, (a pat on the back for me, and applause needed) I got on one of my 4 yr olds....the very timid none thinking BIG Guy! And although I am alive yet to tell about it, I am not sure I am in a hurry to get back on him!!!
My other 4 year old, still bucks under saddle when free lunging, but hasn't with me riding her. And I always say she thinks the most of any of my horses, but she is still expressing herself in a childish way I guess we could say.
I think it's great that some of you has success with older horses. Maybe I will let my silly one age a little bit more before I get back on him.
Dove2,
I think that hormone just applies to men, don't it?  LOL!!!!!
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 8:11 pm:
Angie,
I have found that men mature somewhere around 50!
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 8:16 pm:
Angie ... On my own horse, I work with them as foals with halter, etc. Then I let them just hang out and be horses til late three or four. Then I usually just get them to work a little under saddle in and out of the roundpen, some mild trails, then turn out again. At 5 or so, we start getting serious. Client horses are all ages, but generally I recommend starting new horses no earlier than 3. I have a lot of clients that think if they are not riding at 2 we are way behind.
My experience is that a lot of young horses learn quickly, but also forget quickly. I think we tend to give them emotional overload, and they are forced to rebel to deal with it.
I have a mare that I didn't start til 8 and she was one of the fastest learners I have ever trained. As with everything else, a lot depends on the individual horse. I don't know that I would have an opinion on any horse being too old to start.
DT
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 8:21 pm:
Forget it Dove ..I'm 52 and maturity has not reared its ugly head with me yet ....
DT
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 9:30 pm:
Did I forget to mention that cowboys and musicians are a breed unto their own? The normal rules usually don't apply to them. 
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 10:25 pm:
Yep ... that's what I'm constantly told. Nothing normal here.
DT
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 10:08 am:
Ah Dove2, you made my heart sing with joy; only 6 more years til my husband is mature!!
Drats Dennis, you went and broke the spell with your post!
Dennis, seriously, I like your thoughts on the time line for training. Now I don't feel so bad that I am not doing as much with the 2 - 4 year olds, and riding the 7 year old more.
I am always amazed at the number of people who hear my horses ages, and seem to think they should be going out on rides for hours everyday...and then was when they were 2 and 3 year olds!
A few have commented that "O, s/he's young yet, don't worry about...."
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 10:38 am:
Well, I'm in horse racing/breeding country and October and November is when they start breaking "long" yearlings. So they will be ready in the spring for the 2-year-old in training sales.
I can't believe they can even get a saddle and rider on some of these babies, but they do.
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Member:
Leilani
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 - 3:41 pm:
Hi all,
My mare is also 5, foundation trained, at times. Yesterday she decided to refuse my request to return to the pasture by stopping all movement. Nothing I did moved her. She seemed to be in a 'zone.' This behavior happened about 6 months ago and then passed. Dennis, Christos, anyone, any ideas? Or is it the 5yo defiance? Leilani
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 - 4:15 pm:
Leilani ... Not an uncommon thing in my experience, especially in a young horse. I will usually just pull their head to one side or the other, and hold til they move any foot, even slightly, then reward and praise. Next, I will hold til they take a step sideways. Repeat this on both sides a few times, then ask to head to pasture again. If she still won't go, repeat the process ..You may want to include some hip tapping, or whatever your normal forward cue is. Usually, once you get the feet moving in any direction, they forget all about balking.
I once had a horse who refused to be led through the gate that he had been through a hundred times, but this time he would back up, and refuse to go. After about 3 tries, I just turned him around and backed him through the gate. He sure had a funny look on his face once on the other side, but was fine after that.
DT
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Member:
Dawson
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 - 4:15 pm:
My Saddlebred mare had "issues" around the age of five.
One afternoon my husband climbed on-board which was not usual, and the mare would not budge also not usual, she would go well for anyone before this incident and has since.
I qued her verbally to walk, and as she saw my approach she did.
Two or three days later when I was on board she again refused to budge... no problem, I've got all the time in the world.(or act like I do)
so we stand...stand...and stand some more. The mare decides she has won this power struggle and steps off.
I respond by telling her to "stand"
Standing is no longer her idea, so now she's mad.
We stood for a good fifteen or twenty minutes, never happened again.
It's important that I didn't change the tone of my voice, or try to force her to move by making small circles. The power transferred from her back to me with no effort, and she respected that.
If I negotiated with her or tried to manipulate her by moving her in small circles we would have continued this game probably for a few weeks. A horse will follow if he feels you are in charge of a situation, same as they would a lead horse in a herd.
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Member:
Leilani
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 - 5:30 pm:
Dennis and Dawson,
Thanks for the information. Dennis, I supple her everyday on the ground and then from saddle before we begin. I did turn her head to my boot and she proceeded to grab the saddle strings and hang on. I had to laugh which did take the edge off.
Dawson, I really like the stand until... forever. That might just work with her. She is a really smart horse (aren't they all, but sometimes...
Thanks again. I will see which mare is there tonight and go from there. Leilani
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Member:
Hally
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 - 6:28 pm:
In praise of older horses.
I must say I look forward to my horses getting older. There is a level of trust and maturity that outshines the brilliance of youth. My 26 yr old gelding would walk through flames for me.
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Member:
Jessiew
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 26, 2006 - 11:40 am:
When I was training my now 11 year old, around 4 and 5 I had the same problem, since I can't afford to break my arm, I went to a John Lynons clinic and he said to keep kicking her lightly and tapping her hip. I kicked until I was blue in the face.
Well then she acted like she was going to rear, and I didn't want her to learn that one, so I ended up getting off her and just walking her out of it, then I would get climb back on. When she got to the age of maturity about 5 ish, I was able to just get after her a little stronger and she now knows when I mean it and she is great now. So yes, like children they go though stages. Unless you understand the stage part, you think they are going to be like that forever. You also can see how easy it is to screw a young horse up if you scare them. You just have to get past it as safely as you can. I figured I can always use the exercise, and I don't get hurt.
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Member:
Leilani
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 26, 2006 - 3:58 pm:
Thanks Michele. I try to train by remembering to Err on the Side of the Horse (Mark Rashid). Leilani
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New Member:
cruces
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 9, 2010 - 8:10 pm:
i just joined horseadvice.com in desperation about my 4-yr-old rescue horse that i've had for 3 years. i've been riding her for 16 months or so, trained her myself. She has been SOOOOOO easy, so willing, so level-headed. i have her entered in a ACTHA ride (our first) for Nov 20, 2010. Right after we {finally{ learned to back up under saddle a few weeks ago... suddenly she won't let me mount her, she turns to nip at me as soon as a saddle comes near her back, that sort of thing! i have to say after all i have read, i guess i pushed her too far too fast and expect far more from her than she can really give me.
friends have told me i simple have to beat the crap out of her if /when she ever tries to nip at me again ( she will), demand a lot more when trying to mount her and get meaner. yes,these are horse people. it doesn't seem right to me.
i feel now, after reading all these posts, that i just have to let her be a teenager and love her, etc, (NOT that she can bite at me!) but leave her be for a at least few months or so.
heck, i have my 14 yr-old Arab to ride :-)
thanks everyone!
and if i've misunderstood this behavioral change, someone PLEASE lt me know!
}}
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 10, 2010 - 12:18 am:
Hello, and Welcome!
DrO is going to tell you to start your own discussion which you should because it helps keep things straight and then you "own it" and will get more responses.
I think this behavior change is a sign of pain and you should approach it as such. Check and see how she acts when you approach without the saddle? Go along her spine and back and see if she flinches? Be very loving and concerned the while watching her responses and keep in mind her nipping is NEW behavior and she is trying to tell you something. PLEASE don't hit her or ride her until you find an answer to her behavior and stay safe yourself.
And start your own discussion please; I'll be glad to respond again.
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New Member:
cruces
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 10, 2010 - 12:41 am:
okay, i thought this issue seemed close to this discussion, but , Angie you think it's different enough to start on it's own? ok. but i haven't figured out how to!
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 10, 2010 - 9:11 am:
KJ,
If you go to the top of this discussion you will see that it is part filed under
HorseAdvice.com » Training, Behavior, & Conditioning Horses » Behavior and Training » Topics Not Covered Above » Five-year-old "defiance?"
And that all but "Five-Year-old defiance" are blue. If you click on them you will navigate back to instructional articles. At the bottom of "Topics Not Covered Above" there is a button that allows you to start a new discussion.
BTW, Angie gave you some good advice.
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New Member:
cruces
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 10, 2010 - 11:35 am:
thanks guys! i will do that. i will go to "behavioral changes" now i guess.
BTW- i have been looking for her pain for about 2 months now and cannot seem to find anything.
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