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Discussion on Balance vs. Motion or French vs. German
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Member:
Jivete
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 3:57 pm:
What do you guys think about the differences between these styles of training? I know I've generalized the training styles and it's much more complicated than I've put it, but I'm curious about the opinions about starting either long/low and forward or starting with balance and lightness and then working on longer, more forward strides. I ask because I was reading an article about how the different styles apply to different breeds, specifically Iberian breeds vs. warmbloods and am curious how the HA members feel.
Here is a link to the article.
https://www.eclectic-horseman.com/newsletter/Balance_v_Motion.php
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 5:59 pm:
The answer is very simple, Carla.
You start a horse's training with what he can easily offer. If he prefers collection, so be it. If he prefers extension, it is just as good.
We take what he gives naturally, perfect it and stabilise it, then build on that strong, natural foundation to develop the movements that are a bit more difficult for him.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 8:19 pm:
I agree with Christos. The horse is the one that guides you. Most of the Arabs that we bred when I was growing up were very uphill, So to speak. They preferred more collection early on. My gelding as a kid could canter on the spot almost, it just came naturally. The stallions were the same. That's what I loved about the breed or maybe it was the type we were breeding we bred. But when I got my guy now, it was so different. At first when I got him as a just broke 3 year old I hated the fact that he did not have that beautiful high arched head carriage. He had a short neck and well just wasn't built the same way as the type my mum's breeds. It took me a long time a very long time to get used to the different head carriage and type of horse. I got him, thinking, he would be like the Arabs I grew up on , but I was so wrong. He is one that needs the forward before the collection. I hated the fact his head was so low, I was like why is it not up , why doesn't he look and stand proud, It was a big humbling and learning experience for me. I was so used to riding beautiful high carried horses that could move on the spot so to speak. But a big but, after i have had my guy for so long and got him to where I want I would say he is just as good and just as beautiful as the ones I grew up on.
I will try and post a picture of a 3 year old just broke stallion ( he is old Now) don't forget he is untrained just broke no experience what so ever in this picture . See how up hill he is. Wish I had a picture of my childhood horse, but a bush fire destroyed all pictures. .Because of growing up on this type of horse I love lippanzza and that type. Even though I love thoroughbreds and the less up hill horse that is not my first choice, Dont tell mine that though I would not trade him for anything. But yes I think ,breed and conformation has a lot to to with how you train.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 8:28 pm:
PS Please don't critique my horrible riding position..I was at that time more concerned with him than how I look . I looked horrible. I was in my late teens and more into training than correct position.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 8:53 pm:
I remember an old cowboy telling me once, "each horse is a snowflake, ain't none the same as another one." He wasn't a famous trainer or even a show rider. He was just a backwoods guy that grew up around horses. He was a guy living in a mobile home just so he could afford to have some horses. I bought a lot of horses from that guy over the years because he had such a good eye for a good horse, and he knew EXACTLY what I was looking for in a horse. So what if he used baling twine for reins and his arena was a mud pit? That guy knew his horses.
Horses generally behave similar enough that we can use training scales to help guide us in their training program. That said, each and every horse is going to need an approach that is physically, mentally and emotionally customized for that horse. No technique is the best technique for every horse.
Each one, a snowflake!
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 10:56 pm:
Beautiful, Debbie, beautiful.
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 12:10 am:
My Arab collects like it's the easiest thing in the world as well....I was trying to describe that in a recent post I made about my first USDF show. I know it might not allow us to get the scores the judges are looking for at first level but I bet passage and piaffe will come rather easily when we get there! They do look like they are prancing and very proud don't they?
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Member:
Canderso
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 7:47 am:
Interesting article.
It made me think of a discussion we had a few weeks ago, on this site - someone made the point (was it Debbie?) that ex-event riders make the best dressage riders because they are not afraid of forward (and many dressage riders are...)
Christos' comment was interesting too because for once in all the years we have been on this board, his comment was not consistent with what I have learned.... but maybe I misinterpreted.
I clearly remember more than one very highly qualified and successful clinicians commenting that 'if the horse wants to go up, you ride him down. If the horse wants to go fast, you ride him slow'. Each time I heard this, they went on to clarify that you do not ride the contrary to eliminate the natural tendency, but to add to it. (So you school what is missing to the point they stop offering what comes naturally.)
So wouldn't that argue if the horse offers motion, work on balance. If it offers balance, work on motion?
... and I remain in awe of those who are coordinated, talented and sensitive enough to actually to do this!
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Member:
Jivete
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 10:35 am:
I agree with Cheryl, and it was pretty odd to me to read such a different view. When I started my half-Andalusian, I followed the training procedure I had for many horses based on my education, pony club and german based dressage...get them moving forward, get them to give and start stretching, then bring them back. But it wasn't working well for her, in fact it seemed to be making her worse not better.
So finally, a little frustrated, I started working the opposite direction. This mare is mostly for pleasure so I wasn't worried about ruining her chances for upper level stuff. To my surprise though, instead of getting a sucked back horse with no impulsion (which is what I'd always been taught happened when collection started too soon), I'm getting a horse that's moving with more thrust and with longer strides when I ask for them. I have to wonder though if the months of asking for forward and push aren't just paying off now when I'm asking more for quiet, round and soft.
Maybe the key word I was missing was "starting" the young horse. Don't ask your young 3 or 4 year old for something they can't easily give. Work with what they have, get that right and then start asking for what they need. I'll say this, it's much more pleasurable to ride the round and soft on my mare and really, that's all I want at this point anyway.
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 1:15 pm:
the last barn i worked at had horses from arabs to T-breds and lipizzans and andalusians to warmbloods. the head trainer taught me to train them all essentially the same way to start, but always be ready to adjust to the horse's individual
needs. she taught all the horses to move forward- but never with speed, which is so mistaken as moving forward.. she wanted relaxation of the back first and foremost. once the back came thru and the hindend was swinging properly then she'd develop better collection. she never did any flexing type movements except on those hardcore horses that had come to us with some major problems. she'd stop as soon as possible, saying it overly loosened up their neck and encouraged breakover at the 3rd vertebrae. she followed no set program however for training beyond that point, developing each horse as conformation and mental type dictated. we never had any difficulties with any of the horses we had
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 2, 2006 - 8:11 am:
The principle Cheryl describes is correct, of course.
When a horse naturally offers more collection than impulsion, as is the case with an Andalusian, we need to develop more impulsion. When a horse naturally offers more impulsion than collection, as is the case with a Thoroughbred, we need to develop more collection.
The point is how we can achieve this.
Well, first we need to understand what creates impulsion and what creates collection. Young Thoroughbreds are difficult to collect and young Andalusians difficult to extend. Why?
Young Thoroughbreds are all hindquarters, shouldn't they find collection too easy with such a hind end? Young Andalusians are all front end, shouldn't they find extension easy with such a shoulder?
From this alone, one can see that collected movement requires a well developed front end and extended, impulsive movement requires a well developed hind end. The young Thoroughbred falls on his forehand because, literally, he has not enough muscle there to push himself off the ground. The Andalusian falls on his hind end because, again, he does not have enough muscle there to push his butt off the ground.
No, the horse does not carry more weight on his hindquarters when collected. He doesn't need powerful hindquarters to collect. He only needs powerful shoulder and forearm to push his front end higher and a powerful chest to lift his withers out of his shoulders. And he does not need no particular shoulder in order to extend. If he has the power in his hindquarters to push himself forward, the shoulder will certainly extend proportionally, one needs not worry !
Now we need to put some more hind end on this Andalusian and some more shoulder power on this Thoroughbred. How? We cross them, of course, and produce horses with more hind end compared to the Andalusian and more front end compared to the Thoroughbred, so we need not worry about all this ever again. But even with the modern warmbloods, horses with exceptionally good and balanced conformation, there's always a little thing here and there to improve with gymnastics. Let's see how.
First of all, we'll need some general exercises to build the young horse's cardiovascular system. These exercises must be easy, for we don't want to stress the young horse's body or mind too early. We want to make a happy athlete out of him. So we'll start with what he has to offer. If that is powerful shoulders and falling on his hind end, so be it. We exercise his heart and lungs and we toughen his legs by means of the exercises he likes. If that's prancing on the spot, that's all we have, that's what we'll work with. If the natural tendency is to fall on the forehand, so be it for the beginning.
We cannot grab our pupil by the face and tell him all he does is wrong, that he is stupid, clumsy and untalented, that he better be a different horse. His reaction will be one that will, indeed, set us looking for another horse very soon.
We should not attempt to collect the young Thoroughbred or extend the young Andalusian. It would be too difficult for them, too much strain for their weak parts. Yes, we'll try to help them with their imbalance, but in the beginning our help should be limited to just preventing the young horse from losing its balance to extremes, ie leaning on the bit or falling completely behind it.
We'll try, gently, to control their speed first, by means of voice. That is we'll talk the Thoroughbred into a bit less speed and the Andalusian into a bit more. That is the stage where we tell the horse what we want, we praise him when he tries, but we never try to push him hard into it. The aim is a calm pace, a bit slower than the Thoroughbred is used to and a bit faster than the Andalusian would naturally offer. The form, shape or frame of the horse is not important. What is important is that whatever it is, it is steady and easy for the horse. A strong foundation.
Still, this foundation will be wrong in terms of balance. The Thoroughbred will still be more on the forehand than uphill, the Andalusian more uphill than forward. But we now have a base on which to build. We can go on working on this basic frame for ever and the horse will, indeed, improve. But that takes ages. We can do better.
Once a basic, steady form has been created, we start catching moments. That is we work the Thoroughbred in his basic a-bit-on-his-forehand balance but we find excuses to hold him for a couple of steps here and there. By means of half halts, we ask him to hold his forward movement for a couple of steps, immediately allowing him to shoot forward again after he complies. The same goes for the Andalusian. We'll work him on his basic a-bit-on-his-quarters balance, but we'll find excuses to ask him to shoot forward from time to time, immediately allowing him to go back on his quarters after he complies.
We'll use the Thoroughbred's natural impulsion to load his shoulders for a few steps. Then refresh his impulsion for a round or so and load these shoulders again for a couple of steps. The opposite with the Andalusian. We'll use his collection to load his hind end. As he is half stopped, we'll accelerate him forward, then allow him to slow down and refresh his collection, then reload those hindquarters with another burst forward.
You'd be very surprised to see how much horses like this game and how well it pays. As the Thoroughbred develops, he'll collect very beautifully, for more and more steps, as you delay your cue of where to extend to. As the Andalusian develops, he'll extend very willingly for more and more steps as you delay the cue of where to do his prancing again.
Of course, this will improve the Thoroughbred's extension and the Andalusian's collection as well. Some readiness to collect will develop in the Thoroughbred's natural extension and some readiness to extend will develop in the Andalusian's natural collection. They will start to offer this new movement more and more often, it will become easier and easier, and we'll prolong it more and more.
Instead of bringing the Thoroughbred's hind end down and killing his impulsion to make him look uphill, we will develop his shoulders and lift his front end. Instead of bringing the Andalusian's front end down and killing his collection, we will develop his hind end so that he can push better with it. But carefully. We will load the Thoroughbred's shoulder and the Andalusian's hindquarters with very short, high intension exercises, then let them relax in their basic, "wrong" balance. Body building.
Instead of reducing them to mediocre performers who crawl their way around the arena we'll make two magnificent athletes who'll appear to float in the air and will feel to their rider like a riding a cloud.
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Member:
Sjeys
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 2, 2006 - 10:59 am:
Tell me you are writing a book! I plan to print this out and hang it on my barn wall with my collection of fast, hot TB's and feel a little better about our small steps of building collection a few steps at a time. Of course, my TB is 12, and should be further along but I have 2 babies that will benefit from this mindset of allowing it to happen and using their natural gifts instead of fighting against them. A big thank you.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 2, 2006 - 3:48 pm:
A very thorough explanation. Well written
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Member:
Savage
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 2, 2006 - 4:22 pm:
Ya know Christos, I think I will print that out on parchment paper and put it in a frame, I have never seen an explanation like that before. Fantastic!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 3, 2006 - 6:15 am:
I feel I must warn all members here of the dangers with such articles, where the author quotes a single paragraph (the one that serves his wrong ideas) from a whole book, unashamedly omitting the previous and next paragraph.
Laying down this concept in 1949, the French riding master General Decarpentry wrote:
“By first obtaining a relaxation of the mouth by means of special exercises called flexions of the jaw and getting the horse, by shrewd progression, to move in all directions without deterioration of the relaxation, the rider will have the certainty of keeping his horse constantly and perfectly balanced.”Academic Equitation
The complete text is as follows:
Baucher entirely agreed with this view (1), but nevertheless based his method not on this proposition but rather on its "converse", which could be formulated as follows:
“By first obtaining a relaxation of the mouth by means of special exercises called flexions of the jaw and getting the horse, by shrewd progression, to move in all directions without deterioration of the relaxation, the rider will have the certainty of keeping his horse constantly and perfectly balanced.”
It was certainly so as regards the horses trained by Baucher himself. Possibly too as regards the horses trained by his pupils under the Master's eye.
However, those amongst them who had had to work alone, solely "by the book", have had a different experience. The excessive use of these flexions makes the jaw become more supple than the rest of the body. It yields too quickly and too easily, before the rest of the muscular system relaxes, and sometimes even when it does not relax appreciably.
Because of this excess, which can be aggravated further by the trainer's lack of skill in the practice of the flexions, the value of the yielding of the jaw as a proof of submission and perfect balance is much diminished and can be vry small indeed when it is induced even more artificially by a pinching with the spurs, as was Raabe's practice, after de la Broue and Frederic Grisone.
One can then validly object that the yielding of the mouth is accompanied by characteristic faults, namely those described above concerning the jaw.
But often these can only be observed by a very experienced trainer, after long practice. For the less experienced, even when advised by the former of his error, it is often too late to rectify this completely. In most cases it is therefore prudent to try to obtain the "Mise en Main" indirectly, by means of comprehensive gymnastics which will lead the horse to use his forces as harmoniously as possible in all the movements required of him.
(1) My note: The view that the horse will relax his jaw when he is made happy in his work.
There are a dozen similar issues with this article.
Like Charles De Kunffy's warning against throwing the horse forward. Yes, he says don't throw the young horse forward, but that does not mean that he suggests the opposite, ie trying to collect him. Early attempts in collection is not Charles De Kunffy's idea of balance.
It would be a waste of time and space to comment on every single misconception in this article. Let me just quote Colonel Podhajsky:
Man is fallible and a method of training, even the best, is impaired by waivering or mediocre representatives. But this should not lead to sticking a new label on a method of training debased by human weakness and praising it as the only true method. It seems to be presumptious to try to replace the teachings of a Gueriniere or one of the other great old masters by new, so-called "modern" methods. At the very best the result would be, as can unfortunately be seen so often, that the rider may make work easier for himself. However, he loses in double and treble measure what according to Xenophon and Gueriniere he should strive for, namely, the horse that develops to his full beauty, that submits to man willingly and with joy, and that by his suppleness and proficiency makes riding a sheer pleasure."
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Member:
Jivete
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 5, 2006 - 10:02 am:
Thanks Christos, that explains so much. I didn't feel like I was accomplishing much with long training sessions of long/low with my mare. Occasionally I'd get the longer, more powerful stride I was looking for but she certainly couldn't hold it for any length of time and it felt like we were going backwards in training. This just makes so much more sense and is much more pleasant for me and I'm sure for her as well. I've been asking for just a few longer strides on the diagonal or some large stretching figure eight's for brief periods during our training sessions.
It seems to be paying off. On my trail ride yesterday, she gave me some truly long and powerful strides, something I wasn't sure she'd ever have in her. It would have been even more wonderful if I wasn't spending so much time ducking under tree branches...
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Member:
Aewheele
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 5, 2006 - 11:00 am:
Christos, just out of curiosity, what do you think of Nuno Oliveira's teaching methods and philosophy? I've had 2 trainers who had worked with Nuno back in the day, but you don't hear a lot about his techniques anymore.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 5, 2006 - 3:56 pm:
The diagonal and the long sides of a full arena are very difficult exercises, Carla.
It takes an exceptionally strong horse to sustain full extension or collection the whole arena length.
The Dressage horse is a gymnast. We do not start young gymnasts by requiring five somersaults from the very beginning, then working on perfecting them. We work on perfecting the first one, then the second one, and so on.
Three or four correct steps out of the corner is excellent performance to start with. Many times you have to be content with just one or two steps in the beginning.
Nuno Oliveira was a great Master, Dede, and the methods of great Masters were never really popular. Mostly because they focus on improving the rider, not the horse.
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Member:
Jivete
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 6, 2006 - 8:55 am:
I'm not asking for the entire length Christos, just a few longer strides. I like to use the diagonal because it feels less confined, but only a few strides at a time.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 6, 2006 - 12:18 pm:
Oh, I'm not implying that you do that, Carla, it is clear in your post that you've found the way.
I only meant to encourage you to go on with your current approach and emphasise the correctness of it for younger members who read this, in hope that it will save them some time and struggle.
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Member:
Jivete
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 6, 2006 - 4:38 pm:
And I've certainly made that mistake in years past, which is probably why I always had such a hard time with my lengthenings...
Thanks for all your help.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 6, 2006 - 5:06 pm:
You have certainly not made that mistake longer than I did, Carla. I inadvertently made one or two very good endurance horses before it finally dawned upon me that something wasn't right!
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 12, 2006 - 10:09 pm:
Christos, your explanation of the different methods makes great sense.
My mare is TB/warmblood, she had some trainer, much time off amd comes complete with baggage that includes tucking her chin waaaay in.
I wonder if you could explain a bit of how to 'load the shoulder', of a TB.
Is it only with the half-halts? I am thinking when first teaching half-halts you must almost sense it happening then it happens a bit more. She will go very forward so I use serpentines to control her speed.
Thanks
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 14, 2006 - 1:27 am:
Yes, Lori, with half halts only.
Think of the TB as a big, heavy coil spring. If you restrict its front end for a splitsecond, its momentum will cause it to compress. The moment you feel it compressing under you, you must release the restriction to allow it to spring forward again.
If you hold too long, it will do a number of unwanted things, depending on the spring's characteristics. It may spring forward fighting the restriction, it may disengage by relaxing backwards, it may become crooked under you etc.
Forward is what we want to preserve, so the moment we feel the spring compressing we must immediately release it.
As we get better and better by studying our spring's characteristics, as we master how much forward momentum and how much restriction is required for this spring to compress, we'll be able to compress it very accurately and very frequently without any of the unwanted side effects.
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 14, 2006 - 1:13 pm:
One of my mares issues is too ignore the halt command, half-halt....ha
So, what I think I need to hold the half halt until she comes through, which means responds.
At one time I would have responded to her lack of response by using enough pressure to make her pay attention and stop. This makes for a fairly bumpy stop. And since she was ridden heavy handed before me and has learned to tuck her chin I don't know if tis would be the route to go. Once she learns she has to listen we could refine the process but maybe someone has a different idea.
I do use circles to slow her, when she is relaxed they work well.
The main issue is her mind needs to be retrained to stay calmer.
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