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Discussion on Overly strong seat
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Posted on Monday, Apr 9, 2001 - 6:14 am:
I have been riding regularly for over 12 years now, almost always reliable, if somewhat lazy mounts. My own horse is a lovely arab, who also errs on the lazy side.
The problem arises when I ride "hot" types, like TBs. They just fire up, and I have a great deal of difficulty bringing them back. I have decided to borrow a horse a week from the riding stables, and ride in an enclosed arena to get the feel of these big V-12 types. With the occasional lesson on one as well.
What I would like to know, is, what exactly is my seat doing? I feel like I am only moving with the rhythm of the horse (which feels pretty strong and strange anyway). My half halts seem to be very easy to ignore. All I have to do is think about stopping and my own fellow obliges. He needs seat and leg so that he just doesn't fall apart when he stops. These big guys seem to be speaking a different language. And somehow it seems to be ME who fizzes them up!
Are there exercises I can do to "lighten" my seat?
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Posted on Monday, Apr 9, 2001 - 6:36 am:
I'm no expert and I'm sure you'll get some nice advise from some folks who know tons more than I do but here are my thoughts anyway 
Check to see if in your anticipation of these horses that you aren't actually using too much rein so that the horses are starting to pull into it-also from my own experience when riding a less forward horse I got into the habit of tensing my butt muscles while constantly askng them to go forward (which eventually just numb them and made it difficult to relax their back) So when trying to slow the rhythme use the weight through your thigh following their hind leg as it comes under you and then you can slow it down by holding the weight slightly. I know my guy relaxes nicely if I relax and follow the side to side rhythme with my seat making sure that my butt is relaxed, too.
Kim
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Posted on Monday, Apr 9, 2001 - 8:23 am:
HI Debra,
I'm not sure if this will be helpful but my coach has said it to me:
"imagine that you are a broody hen sitting on an egg" you want to drape your legs around the barrel (egg) and sit lightly on top.
I know it sounds bizarre and I do chuckle at it, but it also works for me (I tend to tense my seat).
If you ever see me riding in ring and I'm muttering to myself I'm probably saying "ok, broody hen, broody hen"
Teresa
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Posted on Monday, Apr 9, 2001 - 10:06 am:
Hi Debra--more inexpert advice here. When these TBs get hot, where is your leg? Are you taking your legs off the horse because you don't want him to go any faster? This seems so logical, but a hot horse can get anxious without the reassurance of an even leg contact and can run on in anticipation--as if he's thinking "I don't know where that leg is but I know it's going to slap on any second now." I agree with Kim, too, about use of the reins--if you "lock" your arms or pullll back on the reins to slow a hot horse he is likely to just pull harder against you and even accelerate. As soon as the horse starts increasing his pace, without changing your steady leg and seat--I mean don't get up out of the saddle, tip forward, or take your leg off--squeeze/release on the rein and keep it up, until the horse returns to the correct pace. Experiment with the rhythm and strength of the squeezes, but the point is that it's a pulsing aid rather than constant pull. If the horse has been running on for several strides before you begin, it will take longer to slow him, you have to try to respond to the first accelerated stride. I think it's great that you have the chance to try out a different horse once a week, you'll learn so much. I hope you'll let us know how it works out!
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 10, 2001 - 2:50 pm:
Hi Debra! I've found with most of my "hot seat" students that they're usually not doing two things. The first is they're not moving well in their hip joint. (If this is your problem, you would probably have more trouble at the canter than the trot.) Rather than moving in their hip, they either move through their waist or their entire body. This creates a much stiffer, driving motion and the horses react by moving faster. If you think this might be a problem you can practice breaking in your hip on the ground. Stand with your feet even with your shoulders, bend your knees (be sure your carrying your weight in your heels), put your hands on your waist and practice a pelvic thrust. If you're doing it correctly, your upper body from your waist up should remain unchanged while the area from your waist to your knees straightens. The second thing you may be doing is rushing your rhythm. In general, TBs are longer strided than Arabs. What may be happening is you're rushing your rhythm and the horse is going faster to try to catch up with you. Then it becomes a spiraling problem because you then speed up to catch up with the horse then the horse speeds up to catch up with you, etc. At the trot, this would mean that your posting just a touch ahead of the horse's rhythm. When posting, try to post a little behind the rhythm of the horse. It's hard to do at first and will feel like you're out of balance, but when done correctly what should happen is the horse will slow down to match your rhythm. With the longer strided canter, your movement needs to be slower and bigger. You need break farther in your hip to follow the entire motion of the stride in order to follow the greater distance. Again, if you rush your rhythm by stopping it too soon, the horse will speed up to try to catch up with you.
The other common possibility that comes to mind is that you don't necessarily have a hot seat, but your body is so used to pushing your "lazy" horse that it continues to do so on the "non-lazy" horses. Try to feel what your body is doing and make sure your not driving with your seat and leg. Video tape is a wonderful thing if you don't have a trainer. Tape yourself and see if your feeling what your body is actually doing.
Lastly, be sure you give the horse a chance to be good. By that I mean if you're expecting the horse to rush with you, he probably will. After a nice 10 minute walk warmup, start trotting some big circles. Do lots of changes of directions, serpentines, things that will get him listening to you. Nothing worse than a bored TB looking for something to spice things up (grin)! It will also help you to relax, because you'll be busy planning your next move rather than worrying about how fast he's going. Use the circles to help slow him down if he starts rushing and be aware of what your rhythm is when he starts to speed up.
I hope this helps! Let us know how you do.
Nancy
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 11, 2001 - 2:01 am:
Thanks everyone! You've all offered me something. I will be doing my broody hen impersonations for a while I think..... what a great image! That might help deal with my tense butt, which I am sure is the "seat" of the problem.
Nancy, you are dead right about the canter. It feels like something off the track. I'll be trying the hip flexibility exercise, because I do have problems there. I don't mind doing exercises on the ground.
It is not so much that I expect the TB to rush, I think more likely that I simply am out of rhythm with the bigger stride. Practice will help here.
I am used to riding my Arab with very little hand (he resents it) so I am also quite inexperienced in using the reins to slow the speed. I will try that coordinated squeeze/release routine as soon as I feel the take off.
I have also been trained to keep leg on, so I don't think that not enough leg is the problem.
I will also practise all these things with my own horse, who will probably appreciate a lighter seat as well. I'll keep you all posted and thanks again!
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Posted on Tuesday, May 1, 2001 - 8:22 am:
I have your ideas out, and this is the result. I have been doing those hip exercises every day and I think they have helped.
I rode the same TB and he was a lot more calm cool and collected (even a bit on the lazy side). Perhaps he really hadn't been worked much the first time I rode him! I also got the hang of his rhythm a lot sooner, though I was exhausted after half an hour of arena work. I still find it really hard to slow the rising. My own horse seems to resist this by going faster and then I bounce after a few strides, and he regains his preferred, speedy, rhythm. (The naughty thing)
Am I trying too hard? Am I tensing the wrong muscles? Is this a matter of my balance, or flexibility? I am trying to DrOp more weight through my heels and less through my butt. When I do this I sometimes feel I am supporting myself through the side of the horse instead of the weight falling easily through my heels. Any more ideas?
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Posted on Tuesday, May 1, 2001 - 12:13 pm:
Hi Debra Sounds like things are progressing well! You're right about slowing your rhythm ... it's really hard to do, especially if you have good natural rhythm, because you're not only fighting the horse's rhythm, but also the desire of your own body to fix it. It sounds like you're doing a good job though. Another exercise you might try is standing up in your stirrups. This is a great one for balance and getting you to relax your hip and leg joints. Start out with your horse halted. Hold your reins down on the buckle. Grab some mane for balance and stand up in your stirrups. Once you find your balance point let go of the mane and see how long you can stay up. When you're able to stand up for a solid 30 seconds, then try it at the walk. When you're solid at the walk then proceed to the trot. When you stand up, push straight up through your heel. Be careful if you fall back into the saddle not to pop your horse in the mouth. In this exercise if you find yourself falling forward, you're probably popping yourself up on your toe and pinching with your knee (pinching with your knee means you're trying to hold on with just your knee rather than using your inner thigh muscles. When you do that, your knee becomes a pivot.). Remember that your leg strength should come from the inner thigh not the calf (you're going to want that lower leg to be free to use to urge your horse forward, bend him, etc). If you're constantly falling backwards, be careful that you're not trying so hard to come up through your ankle that you're actually bracing your lower leg forward. When sitting in an English saddle, you should be able to create a 90 degree angle with the ground if you draw a straight line from your shoulder through your hip and down to your ankle. When you progress to the trot, you must use your hip, knee and ankle joints for suspension (much like snow skiing, I'm told). Also, this exercise will use those lower back and stomach muscles. Don't be discouraged if you can't do this right away. I've had students who haven taken several weeks before they were solid at just the halt.
Good luck!
Nancy
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Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 2:39 am:
Dear Nancy,
I have had lessons with an instructor who insisted that I ride very short, and do those standing in the stirrups exercises. And guess what? I always fell backwards. She was focussing on me taking my knees off, and using my lower leg correctly, but as soon as she said, "Take your knees off" I sat down- boom! Thank you for explaining why that could be. I tried and tried for a long time to get it right, and I ended up giving up. I could stand up at the trot and the canter, but stationary, and at the walk, no way.
I will go back to these exercises, focussing on the strength of my inner thighs, and "forgetting" about my knees and see what happens. Thank you for that detailed explanation.
Since my last post, (and before reading yours) I rode the same TB again, and again he seemed quite hot! I rode as you suggested, the 10 minute walk warm up, with circles and serpentines etc, then he seemed to take off at the trot. I tried to slow him down, but I think I was doing the opposite! I was trying to make a bigger rising movement with my hip, but DrOpping too much weight when I sat. The stable owner saw me, and suggested (no, yelled) that I post more "forward" making each rising like preparation for a jump in 2 point position. It felt really weird at first, (like I was going to fall off) but then it seemed to work, and we just flowed around the arena together.
Then we did some canter work, and off he went! I tried to sit forward, and we really travelled around that arena, let me tell you. It is also embarrassing staying out of the way of other riders, when I am not used to this big guy's "turning circle". So do I still keep my weight forward through my leg? Will practise make me feel less insecure? I tried the pulsing hand to slow him down and he treated me like an annoying, and inconsequential fly! He DrOpped his head nice and low and arched his neck, but not much speed modification.
We fanged around for a while, before I brought him back to the trot for a while. He went beautifully.
When I was finished, I just threw away the reins, sat back and relaxed, and the horse, really happy in himself, just eased back to a relaxed walk. Amazing.
Many thanks for your patience and your suggestions. Many horsepeople can do it, but not many (even instructors) can break riding down into exercises that I can practise and do.
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Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2001 - 11:22 am:
Dear Debra,
It sounds like things are still better than in the beginning. What does "fanged" mean?
You're getting to the point where it's tough to know what's really going on without seeing you. My best guess from what you describe is you're still a bit stiff and driving with your back. By getting you sitting forward, the owner is basically taking your back out of play because it will get your seat out of the saddle. Also, when you think about the mechanics of sitting forward, it's pretty tough to drive with your seat if you don't lean back onto your behind.
If the horse is absolutely ignoring your pulsing hand, I would try a slightly stronger pull back ... keep increasing the aid until you get the response you want. The trap to watch out for is getting into a pulling contest with him. I tell my students "Big pull back and then relax". Visualize that you want him to walk, but before you actually break from the canter relax and canter on. Unconsciously, your body gives cues to the horse about what you want to do. If you can make your body feel like you want him to walk, he should respond to that. Just remember to reward him by relaxing your hand. The idea is much the same as the fact that he gets all relaxed and happy when you toss the reins to him at the end of a workout. By what your body is doing and the tossing of the rein, you actually signal to him that you're all done and he can relax now. Remember that horses are incredibly sensitive to all the cues we give them ... even the ones we don't know we're transmitting.
As far as sitting forward at the canter, part of it depends on how far you're sitting forward. A 10% incline of your upper body is pretty normal if you're going to jump; however, if you're getting into a jumping position, IMHO that's too much. It may help as a quick fix to the symptom (the horse rushing), but it won't help fix the disease (the driving seat)
Anyway, hope this helps!
Good luck!
Nancy
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Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2001 - 9:49 pm:
I've been following this thread> good advice. I could visualize what to do. I tried the excercises, too. and I am getting good at it. While bored at the office I was trying the pelvic thrust. But I thought of another excerise: I was taught to post the trot without the stirrups to strengthen my thigh muscles would this help Debbie? I am not a trainer in any way so wouldn't know if this is even something people recommend. but it taught me to work the thigh and not the knee.
Also, as i was reading i was wondering if you have had any back injuries. The pelvic thrust is kinda difficult for me since I have been having back problems and thereby compensating. The back muscles move and become stronger in other ways to make up for the difference. I was pushing to much, too mechanical, not flowing. Even the ankles, if you have tripped or torn ligaments, your mobility is not as good, too.
I sound like I'm 80 but everything i found I was doing wrong was not because I didn't "get it" but wasn't physically limber enough.
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Posted on Monday, May 28, 2001 - 6:41 am:
Dear Nancy and Josephine,
Firstly, fanging is "hooning", basically tearing around like a teenage male in a hotted up car. Got the picture? Most undignified.
I am going to try the "big pull and relax". I think I just have a mental block about putting real pressure on the reins.
As for these unconscious cues, they are real, and they are very powerful. At one stage, when my horse would not canter right at all, I really got very annoyed. I decided that since this horse thought it could read my mind, I would just think about canter right. And guess what, when I just thought canter right, he did it! Then, when he got slack, and didn't canter right, I just imagined tapping him with the whip, and guess what, he cantered right!
I really want to make my unconscious messages work for me. Because obviously I am giving them all the time. Quite scary when I think about it. Nancy, I take it, you mean think walk, then relax and give the aid?
I am trying to DrOp my weight through the front of the leg, and still staying deep in the saddle. This is hard work!
Josephine, don't get caught doing those exercises in the office, people laugh their heads off!
I dont know about posting without stirrups. It used to be a regular exercise, and now no one seems to do it. I can see how it would help the thighs. So I'll try a bit and see.
I rode another horse again on Friday evening, more of your tiny steps type. Truly every horse is different, and has a very different rhythm and feel.
.... and no, I am naturally a stiff sort of inflexible bodied person, particularly in the upper and thoracic spine. This also might explain stiffness through the hips, and the driving seat. I have heaps to practise, and that always makes me feel like I am getting somewhere. Thanks for your interest and I'll keep you posted. I love to read people's comments.
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 19, 2001 - 3:21 am:
I have just ridden my own horse again after a couple of months of riding others. He is so SO lazy, it is no wonder I have a hot seat. I will be investing in a set of spurs this weekend, I think!
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