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Discussion on Rider needs half-pass help
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 8:40 am:
Hello all. I seem to have a mental block with respect to my half-pass aids. My horse is about 75% confirmed on the movement so he is no schoolmaster himself, but I can't seem to apply the aids as smoothly as I would like, or keep them together to make the tiny adjustments as we move. I find myself using the inside rein indirectly, as when I open it out he loses his lateral movement and just heads for the letter. Naturally I have tried to strengthen my leg both inside and out, but I lose the movement and expression. We are better in canter than in trot. Any tips or visualizations appreciated.
I am working with an instructor who has no problem getting his half-pass, and usually I can really grasp her teaching tips. I am, however, always interested in different ways of thinking about things... Stacy
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 9:27 am:
Stacy, does your instructor (or anyone nearby) have a schoolmaster you can practice the half pass on?
If not, have you tried this:
~Ride a half circle to the center line, then ride half pass back towards the wall. On the half circle, the horse is already bent to the inside so you can send him back to the wall with out changing the bend, thus making it easier for you to apply you aids correctly (in theory, anyway - nothing is ever easy with this sport!).
Another thing comes to mind, are you sure you're not asking for too much "sideways"? That's tough for the horse and may account for the loss in movement and expression.
Wish I could help more.
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 10:57 am:
No Fran, unfortunately no schoolmaster available.  That would really be a treat!
The exercise you describe is one of the ways we are doing the half-pass. I am asking him to head to beyond B or E so that the angle is not too sharp. When I watched myself on camcorder the other day, I could kind of see that I got confused in my body position after the first few strides. I am working today on applying my outside leg just as Han's outside hind leaves the ground, instead of rather indiscriminately tapping to ask him to move laterally. This is why I have come to love dressage after detesting it all the years I was eventing - as I have matured as a rider I appreciate the subtlety needed to find harmony. Thanks for your comments, Stacy
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 11:04 am:
Stacy.....I have only done half pass at the walk and we too were taught to use the inside indirect reign, but also (when schooling the movement) to slightly load the outside foot in the stirrup when you feel your right hip swing forward in the saddle while applying your now outside leg that has changed because of the change in bend.
Fran....no expert here as I have only done this in the walk, but wouldn't that work more for learning to school a lateral movement?
If you are on the bend towards the inside of the circle don't you have to change the bend because in half pass the horse is on the bend towards the wall to include the head and quarters?
If I am totally off base please correct me.....LOL. I think better in dressage than I can articulate.
Good luck Stacy....maybe you can school this in your clinic?
Take care,
Corinne
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 11:31 am:
Ooooppppsss Sorry Fran I guess it depends on which direction you are going...I was thinking you were going in an opposite direction from the bend....I have my moments.....neat trick to school the half pass. Sorry only one cup of coffee.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 4:35 pm:
What is important to understand in half-pass is that though the forehand is leading slightly, it is the hind legs that actually do it.
Now we can't bend this inside hind leg and put it under the horse by means of the inside rein, can we? The inside rein should be used only to initiate the bend. From that point on, the horse should maintain the bend, obeying your inside leg on the girth without need to support it with the rein.
Ok, life is not perfect so we may need to re-cue for the bend with a momentary application of inside rein should the horse attempt to escape from it, but we must not hold the inside rein tight in an attempt to maintain bend. Neither should we use the inside rein against the horse's neck, this makes him bend in the withers only, fooling us to believe he is positioned correctly.
Many times a horse does not maintain his bend because the outside rein is too tight. If you are sure the outside rein is not too tight, your weight is on the inside seatbone, your inside leg applied firmly on the girth and you still need that inside rein to maintain the bend, you need to bring that inside hind of his into life by means of the whip.
I always think of half pass as shoulder-in in renvers. So first we teach the shoulder-in, which is the easiest, then the renvers, then shoulder-in in renvers which is half-pass. It is very difficult, I believe, to teach the half-pass if renvers is not good.
As for timing the aids, I prefer to ask for lateral movement when the inside leg leaves the ground. I think it is a lot easier for the horse to take the first lateral step with his inside leg.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 7:10 pm:
I happened to be on DressageToday.com trying to find a place to complain about the lack of delivery of my Sept issue and lo and behold, this pops up. It's written by Jeremy Beale, a USDF gold medalist. It first appeared in April 2002.
I'm going to paraphrase a bit but promise not to muck it up (I hope):
"...I am bracketing the half pass together with the haunches-in because it is fundamentally the same exercise and the haunches-in is the foundation of a good half pass.
The haunches in is a lateral movement in which the horse is bent in the direction of his movement, around the rider's inside leg. His hindquarters are to the inside of the track & the outside hind leg crosses in front of the inside hind leg; the outside front is placed ahead of the inside front. The half pass is basically the same exercise but it is performed on the diagonal of the arena & the outside front will cross in front of the inside one".
Four tips from Jeremy:
~"Upper body of the rider needs to turn slightly into and incline toward the direction of the movement. Make no mistake about it, this is hard to do & requires considerable practice and expertise. If you use a too strong an outside leg you sit over your outside seat bone and body falls behind the movement. If your body falls left when your asking your horse to go right, it is impossible for him to go there.
~The essence of a good halp pass is the freedom of the horse's shoulders. Altho it may be initially helpful to bring the inside hand toward the outside hip in order to control the shoulders, the goal must be to open the inside rein so that both hands move toward the direction you are going in the half pass. It can even be helpful to bring the outside rein just a little up & against the neck to guide the forehand & keep it ahead of the hindquarters"
~{Paragraph about keeping the horse forward - we've already discussed this}
~"When you ride out of the corner hold the haunches a little to the inside with your outside leg, maintain plenty of flexion in the head & neck, and, by aligning it with the track, simply use the horse's crest as a sight line & ride him forward along that line, looking over his poll towards the appropriate marker. You will find that you have to use a lot of inside leg to keep the horse going sufficiently forward & keep his forehand on the track. Apply this principle to the half pass, making sure that you move the horse's shoulders into the excercise first so the always stay ahead of his hindquarters and you will do it most successfully"
End of article
You are so right, Stacy: the precision of the sport is what makes it endlessly fascinating, hugely challenging, frequently frustrating and so very rewarding when we get something right!
Corinne, no need to apologize--I have a difficult time wrapping my mind (and body) around some (most?)of this stuff. I keep telling myself that the physical demands will keep my body young and the mental demands will maintain my brain cells (although as I scan through this post in a hurry & find some spelling errors, perhaps not!)
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 - 3:43 am:
I do not agree with the article, Fran.
It suggests to develop the half-pass on the diagonal from travers on the long side. I find this confusing for the horse.
First of all, we have been working quite some to straighten the horse, ie preventing him from bringing his hindquarters in and making his outside parallel with the wall. He has learned to respect the rider's inside leg keeping his hindquarters out.
Then in shoulder-in, we have kept his hindquarters out as well. Straight on the track, but still, towards the wall compared to the rest of his body.
Also, the wall has a pulling effect on the horse. For many many hours, we have been schooling him that next to the wall is where he belongs, more or less.
To ask him now to bring his hindquarters in "against" our inside leg and come unglued from the wall is somehow confusing. Teaching the renvers, haunches out, makes a lot more sense to the horse.
He is already familiar, from shoulder-in, with the idea of bringing his shoulders to the inside while leaving his a** on the track. He is already familiar with the idea that your inside leg (considering the arena, not the horse's bend) pushes his hindquarters out, towards the wall.
So all you have to do to teach the renvers is bring his shoulders in with a bend to the outside and slide your inside leg (again, inside relative to the arena, not the horse's bend) a bit behind the girth to keep his hindquarters on the track. Easy!
Once renvers on the track is established, all you do to develop the half pass is position him for a renvers down the center line, then simply allow him to return to the wall. He'll cross his front legs as well and lead with his shoulders automatically as the wall "pulls" him, you'll have very little to adjust.
So I believe that your first suggestion of developing the half-pass to the wall from a half circle to the centerline is much much better than the method described in this article.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 - 8:12 am:
What can I say Christos? I'm not a USDF gold medalist (ha! not even CLOSE) so am not qualified to argument on the merits of the article. I only pass it on to Stacy in the hopes that maybe even one little piece of it will make a difference for her (or anyone) and help solve the problem.
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 - 10:35 am:
Christos,
I'm riding in a clinic with Jeremy at the end of October. I'd be happy to pass along your concerns and ask his opinion if you'd like.
Incidentally, the lady from whom I bought my horse is also a USDF gold medalist and was long listed for the USET at Grand Prix. She too thinks of the half pass as haunches in on the diagonal. I'm certainly not going to challenge either of them on the subject since they both make me look like some twisted combination of a sack of potatoes and a bowl of Jello on a horse 
Chris
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 - 11:32 am:
Christos.....you seem well versed in dressage.....just curious how long have you been riding dressage, what level are riding and whom have you trained with?
Chris...would be interesting to see what Jeremy has to say about those who disagree with his methods. Everyone teaches differently and I would like to know what he thinks of others methods. Please update us after the clinic.
Corinne
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 - 3:56 pm:
Corinne,
You're right that everyone teaches different. Everyone also learns differently. There's room for lots of methods. We "just" need to figure out what works for us and our horses.
I've been struggling with keeping my right leg back where it belongs. I lesson regularly with a USDF silver medalist, but it was a recent lesson with the resident jumper trainer to do some caveletti work that produced the "right" words for me; "legs back" didn't do it, "knees down" did.
Chris
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 - 10:06 pm:
Good point Chris,
I have had the same revelation with different phrases. I dont see why it should be any different for a horse.
For example, my last two horses do not necessarily gravitate toward the wall. In fact I think they gravitate more toward the center of the arena. I imagine it is something I have done but I really have no idea why. And no, they dont fall through my inside leg. But the point is, an approach might work better for one horse or horse and rider combination.
Here is a perfect example, . . .
I have always found it easier to get a correct lead on a green horse while on the long side rather than on the circle. The only thing I can figure is that I have a better sense of how straight the horse is on the long side. But it works and it carries over to the circle just fine.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 7:51 am:
Oh, I am nobody, Corinne. No level, no medals, no nothing. I couldn't care less for these. And I haven't trained with anybody famous either.
As far as my experience is concerned, I think I haven't started yet in real Dressage. I do hope to make a good, solid start this winter and reach High School in eight years. We'll see how this works.
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 10:03 am:
Good luck! Haute E'cole in eight years that would be awesome. Mari Monda Zdunic (a Grand Prix rider here in America) who specializes in high school movements has written a book on the subject, I have her dressage version and have cliniced with her. She was a working student of Chuck Grant's (a 1997 inductee into the Dressage Hall of Fame and the father of American Dressage) then became his partner and took over his farm after his death. Google Shine a Bit farm where you can find the book. It's expensive but well worth it.
She also has a video series on the subject and is my favorite clinician.
Take care and Have fun in your studies!
v/r
Corinne
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Member:
Canderso
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 3:49 pm:
Half-pass as being haunches in on the diagonal? Got the exact same explanation from an FEI O level judge this summer. (...and you don't get any higher in judging in Dressage).
but I haven't a clue if that means that is how you teach it, school it or ride it...
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 4:27 pm:
For what it's worth, I also use travers (haunches in) as the basis for starting half pass and it works well for me. Was taught this method by more than one coach (Olympic medalist included). Plus the method you advise Fran also works well. A horse that is ready for half pass should already be confirmed in travers both on the long side and the quarter line so there should be no issue in starting off from the wall.
Will be interesting to hear what Jeremy says at the clinic, Chris. Lucky you!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 5:07 pm:
We are not talking what half-pass is when developed and well established. Haunches-in or haunches-out, it depends on which side of the diagonal you're looking at it from, it does not make a difference!
We are talking what is the easiest way to introduce and develop half-pass, what presents the rider with the least problems and resistances. The easiest way, by far, is developing half pass from renvers to the wall.
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Friday, Sep 15, 2006 - 1:02 am:
I think you are preaching to the converted, Christos, as we are all familiar with the positioning.
Just dragged out Walter Zettl's book and his suggestion for introducing half pass - like yours, Fran - is through the half volte and half pass back to the track using the same aids as for travers. In clinics I did several years ago with both Herr Zettl and Charles de Kunffy, both asked this way, although WAZ asked for the half volte in the corner and CDK asked for it on centre line.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Friday, Sep 15, 2006 - 8:22 am:
Sue - I'm so envious you have ridden with both Zettl & de Kunffy. Can only imagine what amazing experiences those must have been!
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Friday, Sep 15, 2006 - 12:27 pm:
Fran, you should check the web and see if any of them are scheduled to give clinics in your area. Well worth attending, even if just to audit. Both of them - at least at the clinics I rode in - also included a lecture evening which was an extra bonus. Walter Zettl's lecture was an inspiration.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Sep 15, 2006 - 12:52 pm:
I know, Sue, I know. I can only preach for the truly converted, it is too difficult for the rest, they run away on me!
Now what makes you think that Walter Zettl or Charles de Kunffy used the aids for travers? Was the horse bent to the inside of the arena? Was the rider's outside leg (relative to the arena) behind the girth, pushing the hindquarters in?
They used the aids for renvers, and they develop half-pass from renvers to the wall. Isn't this what I'm telling you from the beginning?
The difference is important. Schooling travers in preparation to introduce half pass on the diagonal is wrong. You do not want the horse to travel whole long sides with his hindquarters in, it buries your previous work.
School renvers instead. It is consistent with and it amplifies the horse's training up to this point.
Then, from half a volte in the corner, apply aids for renvers and let the horse return on the track, in renvers. Once proficient on this, ask him to return on the track in renvers from the centerline. Once this is good too, ask for renvers and return to this wall from the second corner of the short side. Do allow the horse's shoulders to lead slightly and you have half-pass.
This produces a brilliant half-pass, mainly because the horse knows immediately what to do when you bring his haunches in after the second corner of the short side.
Get the idea? Half-pass is renvers to the side he's looking at. Makes zig-zag a piece of cake.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Friday, Sep 15, 2006 - 1:06 pm:
Sue, how stupid of me? It never occurred to me that either of them would post a schedule on the web. I've always counted on my trainer and/or the local dressage assoc. to publish clinics but now that I think about it, the Assoc is likely only publishing the clinics that they are sponsoring. It's quite possible I'm missing out on a lot of good stuff!...duh!
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Friday, Sep 15, 2006 - 1:11 pm:
Christos, the reason I know they use travers to develop half pass is because that is what they asked me to do in their clinics! Also, if you read Walter Zettl's book, Dressage in Harmony, he states the same thing - half volte in the corner and then back to the track.
Pardon the pun, but I feel like I'm flogging a dead horse here!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Sep 15, 2006 - 2:20 pm:
Oh, Walter Zettl has displayed the exercise in a renvers fashion, describes in his book how to develop the half-pass in a renvers fashion (because half a volte and back to the wall with the same bend is renvers fashion), but told you to school in travers ? Interesting.
What are you going to do with this travers thing once you master it, remains to be answered, I guess.
By the way, is "renvers" a bad word in some language? Why do all trainers use the exercise but avoid the word, describing it, instead, as travers on an imaginary line?
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