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  Discussion on Need help with horse slamming to the ground.
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New Member:
Camper

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 11:59 am:

I have a 10 year old QH. When he was 6 I had a respected trainer riding him because he was being real fussy and wanting to buck at a canter. The trainer was cantering him around and around the arena, and I could tell my horse was getting aggravated. Then all of a sudden my horses feet went under him and he hit the ground with the rider going off the side. The trainer told me to stay where I was sitting as I jumped up and was heading out to see what happened. He had the horse get up and then got back on. After another 1/2 round, my horse hit the dirt again unseating the rider. The trainer told me he'd never seen a horse do that before, but he was doing it on purpose to get him off. I never took him back, and he never did that again with me, but continued to be lazy and fussy when we canter. I began using spurs and he responded so much better. Then last week we were working on a reining pattern, and had cantered 4 times around the area. He wanted to stop but I asked him to complete the pattern. Then all of a sudden his front feet disappeared and he was down on his side and rolled on my right leg that was still in the stirrup. He got up calmly leaving me on the ground. I was bruised in the ribs and leg area..he is fine and stood over me calm as could be. What is causing this? Has anyone heard of a horse doing this before..and what can I do to stop it except be ready for it. Its like in the western movies, where a horse is shot and falls over. And he is doing this from a canter/gallop. Thanks for any input. This is my only horse, Ive had him since he was 2 and every other way hes perfect..but I dont want to get hurt. Thanks...DJ
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 12:44 pm:

DJ,Oh my I have never heard of a horse doing this at speed. These horses are jsut too smart sometimes. I guess you have checked out all the usual, pain, vet check, saddle fit etc etc. Do you think its pain or just wants the rider off? I know a few horses that go down at a walk. I am sort of inclined to think it might be pain. Only because he is risking himself also thats how desperate he seems. A horse would never do that in a paddock. Hope you find out the reason soon. That does not sound like a fun ride.
Katrina
Member:
Amara

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 1:12 pm:

as already mentioned, obviously the first thing to check is the physical.
if the physical checks out it would sound like your horse has a pressure tolerance issue. horses can surprise us with what they can tolerate and what they cant. they can even tolerate one certain exercise that we may think is really tough, but then not tolerate another that we think is much easier. laziness and fussiness can be a coping mechanism, and if that breaks down, strange things can happen, including falling down to stop the problem. we might think it would be reasonable for that horse to try something else first-like bucking or rearing- but the horse's mind does not work so logically.
he's not really thinking of hurting himself-stopping what he doesnt like is more important. he's also a pretty tough animal, that is capable of doing some pretty rough things and not get hurt.

but first off check the physical. even something that doesnt seem related could be causing the lack of pressure tolerance that makes him act up.
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 2:04 pm:

DJ, how far have you pushed him on the lung line. I would think that if it were a lazy, get out of work kind of thing he would try it there too. At least it might help rule out the rider.
Member:
Shanson

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 2:30 pm:

No idea whether this is behavioral or medical issue, but it reminds me of a thread I saw recently. It was about a yearling filly who had a peculiar way of shutting down when under training stress. She would simply lay down and wouldn't get up. Evidentally, she'd let people sit on her, pull on her, whatever...she would not get back up until she was good and ready. She'd even nibble a little grass while laying there. I saw a photo of her doing this while she was being loaded into a trailer for the first time. In the photo, she was laying draped across the ramp with her head on the grass to the side...nibbling. Wow!
Member:
Jgordo03

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 3:07 pm:

DJ,
Have you had your Vet check for HYPP: Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis? It happens with horses that have Impressive in their lineage.
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 4:18 pm:

I don't think that HYPP would have the effect described. Everything I've read about HYPP is that it resembles tying up.

This sounds like a behavior issue to me.
Member:
Jgordo03

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 4:40 pm:

Chris,
I have a girlfriend who's QH has HYPP and he kind of falls down. Just falls down, but you're right when I saw him do it he was down for awhile before he got up.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 7:46 pm:

Hello DJ,
Judith is right, it is more like weakness than stiffness. I just posted a H/N horse yesterday that was standing and eating and fell over and died in less than 5 minutes. Negative for other problems on the post but got back the blood this morning: conclusive for HYPP. Why these are still allowed to breed baffles me.

But that is not the only possibility, though I think the episodic nature very suggestive of either HYPP or narcolepsy. I have not seen a narcoleptic horse this bad but I can't rule it out either. For more on how to symptoms and diagnosis see:
  • Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Muscle & Tendon Diseases » HYPP, Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis
  • Diseases of Horses » Nervous System » Seizures & Fainting » Narcolepsy, Cataplexy, and Fainting
DrO
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 11:23 pm:

Wow! Pretty freaky.

I had an Impressive grandson that was N/N. I had never heard of the positive horses just falling over; learn something new everyday.

I know that AQHA does now require Impressive offspring to be tested and have their test results stamped on the registration papers.

I guess the positive horses are still allowed to breed because there are people that still are willing to buy them. Sad situation.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Sep 30, 2006 - 9:02 am:

Do you recall what his ears were doing when he fell? How and what were they communicating to you? Were they flattened, casually listening to you, or what? I am thinking if the horse is falling on purpose, you'd see a warning there. Or maybe his ears prick forward in surprise because his body is just giving out on him.

What about working him on the lunge, saddled. All gaits, and do alot of poking around, say in his shoulder area, withers, and girth area and see if you get a response. Again, watch what his ears and eyes are doing/saying to you.

Strangest thing I ever heard of, hope you find answers.

If you ever notice a horse slipping on wet grass or in a muddy area when just playing freely, I swear they look embarrassed when they get up!!
Member:
Jgordo03

Posted on Saturday, Sep 30, 2006 - 10:17 am:

Chris,
I think the Impressive bloodline has given us some of the the most beautiful traits I have ever seen in both the QH and Paint bloodlines. I'm always drawn to them due to their beautiful heads and body stature. Do you happen to know if the APHA has made the same tests mandatory for Paints with the Impressive heritage?
Thanks,
Judi
Member:
Meggles

Posted on Sunday, Oct 1, 2006 - 8:16 am:

Hi DJ, my mare also has a serious method of stopping work from canter if she so wishes. Her method is to literally stop dead and put her head between her knees to ensure that the rider abruptly disappears over her head. She only does this from a canter and only when asked to work on grass i.e. trotting, cantering on circles etc. She will happily hack out and canter sensibly on her own or in company because she enjoys it. She will also canter in the arena quite happily and nicely so there's no pain thats causing this behaviour, but as soon as i school her on grass, (whether it be on a long rein or asking her to knuckle down and work properly) and get a nice canter going i can guarantee that she will first retaliate subtly by playing up and pretending to spook at things that don't exist in the distance and then she returns my persistence with this awful manoevre. There's nothing I can do about it other than go flying off over her head. She literally stops dead and gravity takes over for the rider. Various people have tried different tactics, all reaching the same outcome. It has to be uncomfortable for her to stop like this but thats what she has learned to do. Apparently she learned to do this at the age of around 5 when she was regularly out on the showjumping circuit and being schooled on grass. She did it once one day to her rider and then regularly practiced it after realising that stopping dead equalled being able to rest for a while. In fact, her owners stopped competing her because she was consistently displaying this behaviour. She's 13 now and still does this if I put us in that situation. I have to avoid her triggers and never school her on grass, in which case i don't see this behaviour. I never persisted with trying to school her on grass as i didn't want to fall off any more and this is a long standing habit that I didn't think I had the experience or courage to break. Perhaps with persistence i could have put a stop to it. Who knows. She does have some physical problems that I took into consideration initially but the fact that she is quite happy to do some things but not others leads me to believe that this is behavioural and down to attitude, not pain. Having said that, the whole thing could have started with pain in the beginning that is no longer present and is now a formed habit where she just associates working on grass with pain. I wish you all the best of luck with your boy anyway. I know its very frustrating but I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of things eventually. Just try and stay safe whilst you are trying.
Sarah
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Sunday, Oct 1, 2006 - 8:26 pm:

Judi,

Sorry, I don't have any information about APHA rules. They may have something on their website that will answer your question.

I agree, there's nothing prettier than the head on an Impressive bred horse. Well, at least those that are well bred, not just Impressive 6 generations back with Bucky, Blaze and Star filling out the rest. No offense intended towards anyone's horse who happens to be named Bucky, Blaze or Star but you get my point. One gal at our barn has a gelding with Impressive on the far right of his papers; apart from his less-than-charming personality, he's got a eve neck and a head like an auger.

My boy's name was Tenacious Tardee, by Tardee Impressive. I had many people assume he was an Arab due to his gorgeous head. One guy actually argued with me about the horse's breed. He finally stopped when I said "what do I know, I only own the horse and have his registration papers"!

Chris
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