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Discussion on Peevish foal
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Member:
Kstud
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Posted on Friday, Oct 13, 2006 - 7:35 pm:
Hi all, have a problem with a filly foal who is nearly 6 months old. From the moment she was born literally she was very nervy and slapped her ears back at us and her mother before she was even cleaned off! We did not interfere after she was born but the mare was a maiden and the foal big so it took 2 of us to pull her and the mare and foal nearly died. Even when the foal got up its first reaction was to attack its mother! The mare is my old jumping mare and is basically a snotty cow anyway but would never attack you or bite, just is rather big and ignorant. Anyway we halter trained it to lead and boy was it difficult but learned fast and was ok. We weaned the foal last week and paired it off with its best friend whom she promptly attacked and beat up so much that we had to separate them. Our stables are 15ft by 12ft and have grille partitions between them with wood below so the horses can talk to each other, so we put her on her own with 2 foals beside her in one box and my injured horse in the other. The plan was that we would put her in the paddock every day with the other 2 foals so she could still socialise. She is fine about leading still but when in the paddock she attacks the other foals with her ears pinned back and forced one into the wire fence today and the other poor filly jumped out! We brought the foal back in and as usual rubbed her all over but when I went to touch her front leg she snaked out really fast and bit me on my face with a full open mouth and ears back. Luckily I felt the movement and so she only bumped off my face. Astonished I tried again and she did the same thing but this time she bumped my upstretched and ready elbow and went berserk and launched a full frontal attack on me!!!! I stood my ground and smacked her hard on the nose but she kept coming so I boxed the side of her nose which tipped her away from me and she stood still then with her eyes on stalks and her ears back. I put my hand on her shoulder then and held it there until she relaxed and then moved it an inch down and so on until I had my hand on her leg and then I finished there on a good note. I am baffled though why she is so aggressive and peevish. She is curious and I think would like to be friends but she is not prepared to even chance anything. Before she was weaned I handled her legs no problem though she was jumpy but since weaning she is really hyper. She had basically weaned herself when we took her from the mare and I don't think that she was weaned too soon as she was very independent and giving the mare a really hard time as she is nearly as tall as the mare now and the mare had lost a lot of condition despite great grass and hard feed. Any suggestions?
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Member:
Kstud
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Posted on Friday, Oct 13, 2006 - 7:45 pm:
Should add that we breed 6 or 7 foals of our own each year and they are all really sweet and all handled the same. We have had a few bolshy ones and a few shy ones but never one like this. We are gentle and patient with them and I have never had to box a foal before but I felt that it was imperative that I did not move back from it but that it moved away from me. I was shaking afterwards and my husband could not believe that I stood there with the foal attacking me with both front feet and teeth. Incidentally I saw it try and kill one of the cats earlier in the day. We have 6 farm cats and the horses and foals are well used to them. One of the cats slunk across the far side of the paddock taking a short cut and this foal "Tinuviel" shot across the paddock and tried to strike at it with both front feet. We have no snakes in Ireland so it has no reason to do this and again most foal would either ignore the cat, or spook or sniff but not try to kill it.
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Member:
Tipper
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Posted on Friday, Oct 13, 2006 - 8:31 pm:
Don't have any suggestions but your filly reminded me of the description I was told by someone who was there when UVM Flash was born. He was up and angry at everything within minutes. Tried to bite the vet, the grooms, his mother, anyone...
https://www.morganphotoarchive.com/page161.html
He went on to be a major stud at the University of Vermont's Morgan Horse Farm but his stall always had a full mesh front (unlike the other studs who just had the standard vertical bars) as well as standaway electric wire all around the inside. I expect to save the fingers of all the tourists. :-)
I'm pretty sure Flash was shown successfully so at some point someone must have been able to get through the anger enough to train him. "Bold and full of himself" was the way he was described to the public.
Anyway - maybe some horses are just born angry and working with them may always involve a strong sense of your own self-preservation and safety.
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Member:
Sureed
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Posted on Friday, Oct 13, 2006 - 8:39 pm:
Catherine,
What is the breeding of the foal? Does she have lines any different from what you have breeding and what do you know about the disposition of the sire?
Also, what was the nature of the birthing difficulty? Was she malpositioned? Do you believe she was deprived of oxygen at all?
I have heard of someone with a difficult filly, who had a chiropractor make an adjustment on her neck and that cured her of her aggression and ill temper. Your filly could be in pain as a result of the pull. Is there any other reason this filly might be in pain?
Some of us in the US believe in and use Chiropractors for our horses. Is this common in Ireland? Besides a full medical workup, it may be something you should consider.
Good Luck and Be Safe.
Suzanne
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Member:
Sureed
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Posted on Friday, Oct 13, 2006 - 8:49 pm:
And my question Martha, is why would you want to breed this stallion's temperament forward?
Suzanne
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Member:
Tipper
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Posted on Friday, Oct 13, 2006 - 10:12 pm:
Excellent question Suzanne! I never could get a satisfactory answer other than his confirmation was so great and he showed well. This was 25-30+ years ago when they were trying to make Morgans into crazy Saddlebreds so disposition only got lip-service. I hope/think that attitude has changed somewhat over time. Personally, I would think long and hard before I'd buy one of his descendants but apparently they have done well so maybe his nature was an aberration that didn't get passed on.
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 14, 2006 - 11:20 am:
Catherine, I know a lot of people think a horse/foal with a very difficult character will be a very good one because a lot of 'top'horses have a difficult character. Perhaps they are right and you will have a very good showjumper on your hands. At the moment you seem stuck with a difficult character anyway.
The times we got a horse who misbehaved like this[to me she seems to misbehave] normally they were handled not to strict when they were born or had lived alone with 'mommy'. We only had one or two foals who reacted from the beginning like yours does although they were treated just like our others.
Our reaction has always been the same: Put them out with a dominant horse to teach them a lesson[most of the time a year older sufficed but an old mare or a working horse will do too].
The ones who were born like this learned to respect authority but you always had to keep an eye on them when working with them and could never expect them to behave to other horses they could dominate. I know it is a harsh lesson but for us it worked and at the time I didn't know how else to handle the situation. Good luck and I hope to hear how you handle this!
Jos
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 14, 2006 - 2:04 pm:
Catherine I agree with Jos and I'm sure you've thought of this. Put her in with the most dominant mare you have (but preferably not the most valuable) and let her learn who is boss. Do not separate them unless an injury that really needs immediate treatment occurs.
There are some horses that just are plain evil but they are few and far between. I'd say she is very confused by the weaning and so testing the boundaries left right and centre - sounds like her mother despite being a "snotty cow" was not really prepared to be tough with her either.
I think you did the right thing in standing your ground but I would take a stick with you when handling her until you are sure she has got over this phase.
If no mare available a hairy greedy Irish cob gelding of the vanner long-backed type will do just as well as they will usually fight anything to get at the food.
G'luck, let us know what happens. Hope it doesn't end in tears, not sure what else to suggest though.
Imogen
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Member:
Kstud
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 14, 2006 - 4:10 pm:
Thanks everyone, this filly really has me confused. We could not catch her to put her headcollar on this morning as she has decided that she did not deserve her nose being smacked and acted as if we had beaten her up! Eventually we had to lasso her and then she stood still. When we put her out in the paddock the other foals grazed and she galloped up and down like a loonie as usual. So then we put a donkey out with them! Elvis takes no nonsense and after he had kicked her about 20 times she left him alone. This evening it was just my 14yo son who I think did not even realise that we owned horses as they are not attached to his playstation, and myself. I could not catch her so I brought the other 2 foals in first and so she galloped up and down screaming. Then John caught Elvis and led him to the gate and waited, now I have to say that she is intelligent because she stopped, looked and then walked over to be caught sweetly BUT as soon as I led her from the paddock she acted like a wild horse and I actually thought that she was going to attack me again, I ignored her and resolutely walked on and when we got to the concrete yard she walked nicely as she has been taught, BUT then she would not go into her stable, and so to avoid John getting hurt I let Elvis go into the stable with her and peace resumed. Normally I would put her out with older horses but the mares are just weaned, the yearlings and 2 yos are away on summer grazing, the 3yos are in to be broken and the ponies are all shod! After I put her in the stable I had to gfo and sit down for half an hour as I thought I was going to faint and my heart was pounding. I remember seeing part of a discussion here before, I think it was Christos wife who could ride through a bucking fit no problem and then go all faint. That happens to me too and it is becoming very debilitating. During the crisis, like last night and today, I am really calm and think fast but as soon as its over I feel terrible. This usually happens when I am riding and I am worried about it happening on the ground too. Does anyone remember if there was a cure? Anyway I went out later and decided to start clicker training with her (they are all taught to lead using Clinton Andersons methods). It was so scary because she is totally unpredictable. I held out a small amount of feed and when she approached me with her ears forward I click and then give her the feed. After initial hesitation she would come over with her neck stretched to the utmost and would accept this. Then after 3 or 4 times perfectly she will suddenly slap her ears back and go for me for no reason. When she does this I just close the stable door and walk away and do something else and then come back in 10mins and try again.
Her birth problem was oversize, an american chiropractor has seen her and she is physically fine. She is by an American thoroughbred called Maximum Clearance who is a Grand Prix showjumper and apparently has a good nature. This is his first crop of foals so it is hard to judge but our other foal by him is a sweetie. The dam is a three quarter bred by Spring Diamond out of a Nelgonde mare.
Just not sure what else to do? Her eyes are nearly popped out of her head! What about something herbal to calm her down?
Catherine
Tinuviel and Elvis
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Member:
Sureed
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 14, 2006 - 9:57 pm:
Oh Catherine,
I feel you pain. What a lovely picture though. I know this is taxing all of your senses and expertise. I am sure there are some "behaviorists" out there who can suggest a plan for consistent handling of this filly, but I don't have that expertise. However, it seems to me that she needs some kind of set routine with consistent discipline. She is too young to round pen now, but down the road this could benefit her quite a bit. Elvis sounds like a good disciplinarian, so I think that is a good move.
My only other question is whether you thought she had experienced any oxygen deprivation during her delivery.
I own a Storm Cat grandson TB who has dumped me a few times. They are notorious for being difficult. I have now sent him out to pasture with some broodmares who are guaranteed to discipline him. I won't know until Spring if it has worked.
Please, please, always be careful trying to handle this filly. As you know, babies can do quite a bit of damage. When you feel faint, sit down and lower your head between you knees and take deep breaths. You should feel good about being able to rise to the occasion at the moment.
Good Luck, we are wishing you well.
Suzanne
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Member:
Dsibley
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 14, 2006 - 10:49 pm:
I feel your pain, dear. My Appendix 'Devil Horse' keeps me on my toes, as well. I find that using a stud chain makes all the difference in the world with him. I don't advocate using brute force, but if it's gonna be him or me, I want to win. The stud chain gives me a small advantage...and if he's real bad, changing locations (nose vs. chin) will help as well. Another thread advocated making them stand in place until the 'bad thoughts' are gone, and I have had real good luck with that. Baron doesn't strike out, and I have come to realize that his behaviors are more boredom and playfulness than viciousness. Maybe won't work for you.
Good luck! I had an English Bulldog pup that was oxygen-deprived. Mean, mean, mean. Had her own form of doggie-dementia.
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 15, 2006 - 3:11 am:
Catherine,I know what you mean by nearly fainting!I was the one who started the post about 'freezing' Christos's comment helped me a lot! Can't count the times I nearly got hysterical after an unexpected problem[ALWAYS alone ofcourse if something happens] Don not overstretch yourself. If I were you and you can handle her with the donkey[beautiful solution!] in my opinion you should let him do your work. I've seen difficult horses mature with the help of other horses,much less dangerous and more easy for her to understand at the moment. Besides it gives you just two unpleasant jobs per day in and out of the stable! Don't worry if she learned to behave with Elvis that fast she'll learn leave the work to him for the moment. If she is stressed she doesn't have any intelligence left to use at the moment to behave with you. Ofcourse this is just my opinion and experience but I would be hopefull if one day with a donkey fixes so much problems.
Good luck and please keep us informed.
Jos
PS Think in years with this one not in weeks a showjumper is about five years old before they need their full intelligence.
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Member:
Kstud
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 15, 2006 - 8:21 am:
Thanks Jos, Diane and Suzanne, As far as I can tell she was not oxygen deprived even though it is a distinct possibility, in that her responses and reflexes were 100% when she recovered from the pull. Posssibly there were subclinical levels but even gross oxygen deprivation in foals will lead to full recovery eg dummy foals so I do not think that is the problem though maybe birth trauma is. Have to say that Elvis is working wonders, my son caught him in the stable this morning and so she let me catch her after a minute quite easily and walked out ok except when SHE tripped and then blamed me and exploded! But then she was ok, but it is strange, when I lead the other foals the feeling on the lead rope is phlegmatic and relaxed. With her, using the same rope, you can honestly actually feel an electric thrill down it and it seems narrower and "alive" as it were. I know that sounds really odd but that is how it feels. She was more settled in the paddock and did not flake around but followed Elvis. He is brilliant, he nips and kicks her and she follows him like a dog. I try that and I am the worlds worst! I have to say though that deep down I think she wants to be friends but cannot help being so reactive. I just worry that she strikes out viciously and so fast. God help the person who has to ride her!
Catherine
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Member:
Kstud
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 15, 2006 - 8:31 am:
Oh Jos, can you remember if there is a cure for our after shock reaction? If I do not reply it is because I am flying out tomorrow morning to the states so will chat the week after next. Thanks Catherine
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 15, 2006 - 9:07 am:
Sorry Catherine apart from avoiding shock not as far as I know. But be grateful we freeze after the work is done I know enough people who do during..
I handled a few very difficult horses from birth till adulthood and I do agree with you they would like to be friends it just goes wrong every time because they behave stupid which makes them more difficult the next time. In my opinion avoiding as much difficulties as possible by using Elvis and making circumstances such that they really aren't able to do something wrong works best apart from that I spent time with them feeding them with a bucket[nearly each horse will eat his food without getting into trouble with you] and if I wanted to brush or pick hooves I put the 'friend' in the same place and start with him showing what I want all the time. I have had one foal weaned who took six weeks before I could close the stable door with her in the box alone otherwise she would get out of her mind. Another one didn't like to be touched it took weeks before we could brush her and have her enjoy it calmly. Some of them take a lot of time before they trust you the situation and themselves. If something went wrong I could start all over again. Still as grown horses most of them had taken so much work it was easy to mount them!
So just do as much as you can but as soon as you feel the'electricity' arrive and it is possible STOP, they won't get better from being stressed.
I wish you patience I am sure you will need it.
Jos
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Monday, Oct 16, 2006 - 9:07 am:
Catherine, you're near Cavan, aren't you? Contact Lynn Williams (you can find her via the Irish Arms website). She teaches the young horse handling courses for Teagasc. She is very good. I do not know how much troubleshooting she does these days but if I were you I'd be on the phone to Lynn. She used to breed a lot of Trakehners and school them and sell them ready to go on, and has huge experience.
Good luck.
Imogen
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Member:
Qh4me
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 17, 2006 - 2:22 pm:
This likely won't be of any help, but thought I would share with you.
I have a friend who had bought a gelding, who was the most miserable, meanest thing you ever saw. He was 2 years old, Nobody could do anything with him when our friend bought him, and he thought he would give him one last chance. He would bite, strike, kick - anything to cause you grief. He was a danger to all around, and as yours, he would attack any other horse that came near him.
For one solid week, he tied him to his Jack. Not sure how he tied them together, but it was the best learning experience that the horse ever got. If he kicked him, the donkey would kick back, if he bit him, the donkey bit back. Wherever the donkey wanted to go, he would litterly drag the gelding along with him. The gelding couldn't drink, until the donkey decided to go to water. The donkey would stand out in the middle of the field in the heat of the day, and the gelding would have to stand with him.
After 7 days, he went over and untied the gelding from the Jack, and he was a completely different beast. The most docile, loving thing you would ever see, and still is.
He has never had an issue with him since.
Not an ideal situation, but the horse was to dangerous to be around, so as a last resort, he tried this.
He keeps telling us that the Donkey is the best trainer you can ever have.
WIshing you luck with your filly, and please be careful
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