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  Discussion on 4 year old TB coming off stall rest/EPM
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 11, 2001 - 10:24 pm:

My 4 year old TB gelding is coming off stall/pasture rest. He was rested for a period of two months. The last 28 days he was treated with Baycox/EPM drug. This Tuesday we tried to lounge him for the first time. We hooked up the lounge line asked him to walk out, and in a matter of one second he bolted and took off running away in the ring. After 30 minutes of non-stop running he came to us and we lounged him. The same thing happend Wed 7/11/01. There is no way we can hold him. He walks off the line starts to trot and bolts. He gets away again. I guess I am wondering if he may still be in some sort of pain from the EPM. He has always lounged safely without any problems. It's almost as if we have to start over with teaching him the basics. If anyone has had experience with this type of behavior, please respond. I don't know what else to do.

Posted on Thursday, Jul 12, 2001 - 8:00 am:

This is pretty normal behavior for a very young horse that has been not used for several months. You have several options:
1) Lunge in a round pen so you have some control till the devil gets out.
2) Get someone big enough to overcome his tugging.
3) Use a chain shank at the end of the lunge line and run it over the nose and if that fails under the lip. This gives you a little more leverage.

You may have to combine two or all three of these to get results.
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 17, 2001 - 11:09 am:

Dr. O

Here's my update...This horse has only got worse.
I think it's time for me to make a decision on Trevor. Something is terribly wrong with him. I have had five vet opinions four which thought he had EPM as the original diagnosis and the other felt it was behavorial.

This horse before he became sick, was calm extremly quiet, you could put a beginner on his back.

Trevor finished Baycox on July 10th (Sunday). That following Tuesday we brought him into the ring and looked him over, watched him move (Walk & trot being led). The vet declared him sound. He was moving close in the hind, but she felt that would improve as his strength improved. When it came time to place him on the lounge line, he let us hook the lounge line on him. We asked him to walk he took three steps bolted and took off. Yes, he got away form my trainer. He ran for 1 hour and 20 minutes non-stop full speed. When we finally caught him he still wouldn't lounge he looked wild and scared. I took him to the wash stall hosed him and hand walked him another 30 minutes till he stopped breathing hard.

The same thing happened Wed, he let us hook up the lounge line after snorting at it for 10 minutes took three step and bolted, Took off again getting away. I am telling you no-one could of held onto him. He ran for 1 hour and 30 minutes non-stop full speed. 90 degrees outside both days. This time he flipped out for no reason in the wash stall.

We were scared to put him in a round pen. He would of hurt himeself or someone. The vet agreed NO ROUND PEN.

Thursday we had a big man come out and hold him, three steps he bolted and ran away. Ran again for 1 hour 30 minutes. A little later in the afternoon we took the lounge line in his stall to let him see it, as soon as it got near his hindend he flips. He gets wild, scared, and trembles something awful. We came back an hour later and put the saddle on him, he was ok, looked scared but also walked off looking lame with the saddle on.

This horse has NEVER been hit with a lounge line or even lounged with a lounge whip. used to lounge perfect.

Friday we tried again, he ran away....This time crashing through the ring.

We are at the end..I can no-longer keep an unsafe horse. I can't afford to do anymore with him. We have him tranquilized at this point because he will crash through his stall door. After going through scans, Spinals, EPM treatment, the ups and downs of the roller coaster ride....I am thinking maybe I could donate him to a clinic or to someone who wants to try.

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 17, 2001 - 5:12 pm:

Stacy,
I'm so, so sorry to hear of your plight with this horse. It sounds so odd; as if he has a tumor on the brain or something that makes him unable to process information. Can they do brain scans on horses? Have you tried to free longe him? If you let him loose in the round pen and just groom him and "play" with him, will he respond as a normal horse? What is his reaction to the other horses? If you put him and a buddy together in the pen, does he "read" the other horse correctly?
Holly

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 17, 2001 - 9:53 pm:

Why not transition him from stall rest to pasture rest across the fence from a buddy and then to pasture rest with a buddy so he can reacclimate without injury. (Do you have the turnout that would allow that?) This would let you observe and see if there's anything strange in his behaviour in a non-training scenario.
Melissa

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 17, 2001 - 11:03 pm:

As I look back on Trevor history, nothing adds up..His symptoms have been strange throughout the entire ordeal. I can groom, bath,lead and work around him without any problems. He does very nervous when your around his hind end with your hands, brush or water. He does tolarates only me being near his hindend. I have been taking his tempature daily and it 99.6. As soon as you take him out of the stall and head towards the ring to lounge he simply becomes mental.yOU CANNOT BRING THE LOUNGE LINE INTO HIS STALL, HE PANICS. We have tried to free lounge him with the same results, he turns into a paniced horse, almost as if he is saying please don't make me work, something hurts today. I would agree it sounds like a brain tumor, but wouldn't he react the same way when I work around him or groom him? He just acts so weird about his hindend. It's hard to make a decison on keeping him alive when he is so sweet when he's not being asked to do work.

I just can't be sure he isn't going to hurt someone else who walks near his hindend or me. I am scared to ever ride or tack him again. I just think he really hurts, something hurts. Maybe he has a fractured spine. Today we also tranqulized him for the first time to try the saddle on. He went crazy as soon as the pad hit his back, pulled out of the tranq and ran like a race horse for only 20 minutes.He also is lame on his left hind.

He is out to pasture with a pony, he is well behaved in the pasture and is active. I am at a loss what to do.

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 18, 2001 - 6:13 am:

Stacy,
I guess I'd be at a loss, too. It all sounds very confusing, but if he doesn't seem in pain, and acts normally in the pasture, it doesn't sound like anything can be "broken." If he had a tumor on the brain that kept him from being able to process information, it seems that he would misread his pasture buddy's body language also and show bizarre behavior in the pasture. If he didn't want to work, it seems that he wouldn't run for 90 minutes to get out of work.

Is he dominant over the pony? Does the pony ever ask him to do anything? Just wondering.

Is he really tense when you are working around him, grooming and bathing? When he is eating, can you touch all over him? Will he wear a fly sheet or stable blanket? He must have some great pair of lungs and a huge heart to keep up all the running in 90 degree heat.

Of course, none of us would want you to give up on him, but we're not there and haven't spent all the time and money and tears on him as you have. You'll have to make the choice that you think is the best for the both of you. I wish there was a way to "figure" him out. (I'm trying from this end!)
Holly

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 18, 2001 - 10:36 am:

Holly,

Your right we are all so confused (four vets and myself). His pasture behaviors have not changed since I purchased him one year ago. He is a little aggressive/dominant over every horse at the farm in the pasture and cannot be turned out with just any horse. We feel the pony he is turned out with will not take any crap from him and keeps his distance at all times. Trevor also hangs on blankets and halters in the pasture, but that is probably because he is 4 and playful. He is active in the pasture.

He is very very tense when you work around him, you can never let your guard down, he spooks easily and snorts at everything. One day he may like the wash stall another day he could flip out when the water turns on. This is a total reverse of his behavior. He never spooked or cared about anything you did to him (grooming, bathing, clipping etc).
Odd you should ask about the blanket, Trevor will not wear his fly sheet or blanket. The first time we started noticeing something was wrong /weird with him was when we tried to take his med weight Rambo on and off around the end of winter start of spring this year. He would bolt out from under the blanket as you gently pulled it off his hindend. He would tremble and be paniced till you got the blanket out of the stall. I haven't been able to bring a blanket in his stall or near him from that day on.

I can't believe how much he can run. Honestly I am in shock how he runs..How can he run at full speed in 90 degree weather if he has pain? He looks like he is in pain and afraid that working on the lounge line will hurt him...No-one can believe it... Horses at the gate will not stop him or slow him and neither does feed. He was on rest for almost three months..He is out of shape and can still run so hard? It's so odd.

Another thing I noticed, his coat looks rough, mangey. I brush him daily and he loks dull and dirty all the time. His mane has also developed another texture..COuld this be a side effect of Baycox EPM drug I don't know, the vets don't know.

I have decided to give this one more try..I am taking him next Tues to a specialist at New Bolton Center. Get a fresh new look/ view on him. I can't afford it and hope they will help me in any way they can. Please understand I don't want to give up, t's just costing more money than I have.

Stacy (tears flow all day everyday for him)

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 18, 2001 - 8:17 pm:

Hey, Stacy,
Was the first time you noticed any trouble with him, this winter? How long had you had him before? Maybe his quiet behavior BEFORE was abnormal! Maybe the way he is now is the way he REALLY is!!! Awful thought!

I haven't done a search for this yet, but remember hearing something about selenium deficiency and skin/nerve sensitivity. I have no idea if there really is such a connection and will look it up. I have a rugged looking buckskin with an odd brand on his right arm (which I haven't been able to trace). He is the twitchiest horse in the world to work around; always on guard against human contact. He cowkicks faster than you can blink an eye, and the only times I have been kicked by him were when I was brushing him with a soft brush on his girth area. Sometimes there is static electricity in his hair and in the brushes, and I think he is over sensitive to anything like that. Reaching to check his girth can be grounds for him to snort, kick out, jump to the side, look bug-eyed and start huffing and puffing. Even though he is the most rugged looking of my many horses, when it rains, he is the first horse in the barn. I really think his nerve endings are more sensitive than those of other horses I have worked with. I've always wanted to trace his brand to find out if he was rough broke by some macho ye-haw, but haven't had any luck, yet. It might, on the other hand, be something totally nutritional.

I'm praying for you and your Trevor that the vets will have the wisdom to know where to look and how to treat him for whatever it is that is making him so miserable. Meanwhile, I will try to investigate the selenium issue or any other nutritional-type imbalances that might cause bizarre behavior like you mention. Maybe a hair analysis could be done for Trevor to determine any deficiencies or toxins in his system?

I know you are doing all you can, believe me. I know how frustrating these things can be. If only horses could speak OUR language, because, God knows, even though some of us try our darndest, we aren't very proficient at speaking THEIR language.

Keep in touch.
Holly

Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2001 - 2:33 pm:

I have owned Trevor for one year. I bought him off the track last June. I know it's a horrible thought, but maybe this was Trevor's personality and he's back...I could believe anything at this point. I should tell you that Trevor did have a very severe case of colic the weekend before he stopped doing lead changes and became bilaterally lame in the hind. The colic was so bad we hooked up the trailer to take him for surgery after my local vet had made four emergency visits between 2 and 6. Then all of a sudden he pulled out the colic at 6:15 PM. Like someone turing on the light, it was that fast. The vet couldn't find anything wrong for him to be colicing as bad as he was. He felt maybe Trevor was just over reacting to pain....I keep reviewing this over and over in my mind..Could this be related somehow..Over reactor to pain..Maybe Trevor is an over reactor to pain. SO when he bolts he's over reacting to inflammation from EPM? It's just the bolting is so dangerous. Someone could get hurt. I just don't know. I am not sold that his skin is the problem. Two months ago he was bilaterally lame in the hind-end he has muscle wasting and he is weak on both hind legs. This horse is also very hard to keep weight on, he is being fed the following:

12 quarts of sweet feed daily (no problems with Colic)
5,000 IU of Vit E AM & PA
Mineral block in his stall
I have done a ton of research on Vitamin and mineral defiency and coming up empty handed.

I think I am going to put Trevor through a Scintigraphy (Nuclear scanning). Radioisotopes injected intravenously into the horse are concentrated in inflamed areas. These areas can be scanned with a gamma camera, providing an image of the trouble site

It my last hope
Stacy & Trevor

Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2001 - 3:58 pm:

Stacey, have you looked into the possibility of EPSM? There is good info on this problem on this site and also the Rural Heritage site. If he has EPSM it could explain the hind leg weakness and muscle wasting (classic signs of EPSM), but nothing I've read says that EPSM is associated with such bizarre behavior as he is exhibiting.

I'm by no means an expert on feeding horses, but it seems like he's getting a lot of sweet feed. You might consider a gradual change to his diet following the feeding guidelines for EPSM to see if that has any effect on his attitude. Our filly did become somewhat quieter on the EPSM diet, after we eliminated sweet feed.

Best of luck to you in trying to figure out this problem.

Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2001 - 4:46 pm:

Carolyn,

I have looked into ESPM and printed a ton of material..I am going to take this diet with me to New Bolton center along with the ESPM documantation I have found and ask the doctors if they feel this is something that Trevor may have. I do think 12 quarts is a lot of grain, we do feed it over a period of four times a day. He just DrOps weight so fast.

Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2001 - 9:30 pm:

Stacey, have you always fed him the same way in the year you've had him? Again, I'm no expert, but I've always been led to believe that grain will make horses "hot". There are other ways to help horses maintain weight, such as beet pulp, oil, etc. I hope someone with more expertise in nutrition will jump in here - it does seem to me that if no physical problem can be found in Trevor, a diet change could be tried before you make any final decision on what to do with him. Best of luck in solving this mystery.

Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2001 - 9:35 pm:

Hey, Stacy,
Good luck with the visit to the New Bolton Center. I am very interested in what they will have to tell you after they evaluate Trevor. Does corn oil put weight on him? (I've always had great luck with it.) Blue Seal Feeds here in New England, makes two high fat feeds. One (Demand) has animal fat and is high in protein; the newer high fat feed is called "Hunter" and has vegetable oil in it. I have friends who have used Hunter with great success on an older horse that they tried everything else on. I've also been told that the horses like the taste of the Hunter grain better.

As you do, I have a lot of questions about Trevor's behavior with the longe line, saddles, and blankets. I'm wondering if he reacts in fear partly to the dominant human who is going to ask something from him, and if that is so, how does he react to a dominant horse that asks him to move away? If a dominant horse asked him to get away from feed or to head in a certain direction, would Trevor react in the same kind of mindless frenzy and run for 90 minutes?

Keep in touch.
Holly

Posted on Friday, Jul 20, 2001 - 9:58 am:

We have not tried corn oil because he is already being fed Blue Seal Hunter. I am certinly going to address he feeding at New Bolton. When I went out to see Trevor on the 18th his Temp was 99.6 last night it was 100.6 still normal but slightly higher on a much cooler day. He was very relaxed yesterday and seemed to really enjoy being groomed. I also had an acupunturist out to look him over. They found nothing wrong with his back,no sensitivity but they did find a small mass just behind his left should blade. We are not sure if it is a sting causing swelling. Since we don't want to ask him to move forward at a trot(he may bolt) we will have this checked at New Bolton as well.
I am not ruling out Tying-up and Dr.O may have first diagnosed this in the very beginning, but all 4 vets who eveluated Trevor ruled out ESPM/Shivers several months ago.

Posted on Friday, Jul 20, 2001 - 10:26 am:

Holly,

I am not sure how he would react, if he had a dominant horse with him, the pony is the closest to dominant and he respects her. He is not the type of horse who cares about eating. He rather have attention.More history this may help ... I took Trevor to Mid-Atlantic on May 7th, at this point they were not seeing any signs of lameness, but he was off slightly (crossed cantered). They did a lameness exam not a neurological exam. At Mid-Atlantic they asked me to tack him and ride him. Not ever having a problem with tacking him, we took him to the trailer and began to bridle and saddle him. Then all of a sudden I went to girth the saddle and he reared and broke away. No way anyone could of held him, he had the look of fear in his eyes he was getting away from us. This was the first time he ever did that.I just cried (I finally broke down from everything I couldn't help it) and tried to catch him. He was calm just before we went to girth him, and out of the clear blue he went nuts..They did tranq him after we caught him and I got him saddled and rode him for the vet. ( I was scared to death to ride him at this point, but I did, and he was well behaved). Mid Atlantic sent us home saying it was a behavioral problem, they saw no lameness. (I disagreed because cross cantering was not something Trevor did, plus he wouldn't pick up his lead changes). So we took him home and decided I would lounge him for the week and see if he got any worse.. Well, the next day I went to lounge him and he bolted on me, dragging me through the ring till I let go. I had cracked my head open and was dizzy so I really wasn't sure how long he ran. I was in shock he never took off on the lounge line before. This horse was borderline lazy. plus..I never thought he would take off on me, we have a bond.At this point I knew something was terribly wrong. So two days later we took him right back to Mid-Atlantic for a second specialist opinion. This time he was bilaterally lame and extremely neurotically off. He was turning wide, tripping and simply had no idea where his hind feet belonged. Within a few days, he deteriorated something awful. They then diagnosed him with EPM, I had them do the dreaded spinal tap. How traumatic. Trevor wouldn't go under, it took 5 shots of tranq before he would stand quietly even then he seemed aware what was happening. We Started baycox three weeks later (on back-order) he was also on stall/pasture rest. Now we are here, with a horse who can run for 1 hour and 30 minutes and barely break a sweat? After having no muscle tone, weak in the hind and out of shape. We had someone else try and lounge him, someone who he knew well, but never asked him to work or ride him. He pulled the same bolting behavior. We are only asking him to walk, not even trot. I am trying to stay strong, focused and keep my hopes up, but it's so hard and expensive.

Posted on Friday, Jul 20, 2001 - 6:48 pm:

Thanks for the info, Stacy.
Hmmmmmm.

What was the vet's reasoning for not putting him the round pen for some easy free-longing? How tall is your round pen?

The rough, mangey looking coat seems indicative of something nutritional or chemical, especially if he is getting Hunter grain with the oil already in it. There are obviously behavioral issues that may be due to the physical/chemical imbalances, but the pain issue doesn't seem to make sense if he can act so normally when he is grazing and just being a horse.

This is a real mystery. I want to know the ending!!!!

Please keep in touch.
Holly

Posted on Sunday, Jul 22, 2001 - 12:04 am:

Holly,

I think at this point the vet wanted us to stop all work with Trevor. Plus we were concerned for his saftey..This horse is unpredicable...We did not want him to get his legs caught in the round pen. He acts weird in closed tight spaces..Including his stall, plus we probably would risk losing him if he bolted as we tried to get him into the round pen.
I agree something chemical may be wrong or even absorption problem. I am not sold that he is in pain. If he acts lame, I think he could just be tensing up, in fear of working. If this turns out to be behavorial can we reverse his actions, I just don't know.

Posted on Monday, Jul 23, 2001 - 8:03 am:

Hello Stacey,
I think the best way to look at this is not what is wrong, but what can be done safely, or at least with accetable risk, with this horse. Your decision to what to do next should be based on this. I know this is discouraging. I keep going back to his normal behavior in the field. All the actions above would all be in the normal range for say a newly caught wild horse so still behavorial/training problems are all still possible but the more you describe the more it sounds like a possible pathological problem.

Reading above there is some misunderstanding of the term "behavorial problem". To pronounce it behavorial does not let out pathological problems with the brain. Diseases that localize in some parts of the brain result in behavorial changes. Also if there is something specific about lunging/riding that specifically stimulates pain this might be a explanation of the odd behavior. The problem is ruling our these problems (trauma, degenrative, tumor, infection, etc..) is very difficult without unlimited funds.

I too am very interested in what New Bolton finds.
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2001 - 8:35 pm:

Dear Friends & Dr. O,

I thought I would post this notice for Stacy. I have kept in touch with her via emails about Trevors condition. She took him to New Bolton today where he was thoroughly examined by four Vets and humanely euthanatized. I feel so bad for both Stacy for her loss, and for Trevor that was suffering. I want you all to know the heroic lengths that Stacy went to in order to help this horse. He was seen by the best Vets she could find. Money was tight and she did it anyway. Never giving up hope. This is the kind of horse owner we should all strive to be. My hats off to you Stacy. I am sincerely sorry for your loss.

Cathie =^..^=

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2001 - 10:51 pm:

Dear Stacy,
I had a horse die this spring after rescuing her from neglect, seeing her blossom, then watching her condition deteriorate. I spent what money I could on vet visits, medication and all kinds of feed and vitamins to help her condition. I too am not wealthy and had a hard time financially. Like you, I do not regret the money and time spent, knowing I did the best I could, and knowing her last months with me were better than they would have been had I not taken her.

When you are able to discuss the happenings at New Bolton, you have a ready ear on this end.

My heart goes out to you; I know you did all you could. That's all any of us can do. Horses die, but you gave him the best care possible before the end came. Blessings on you.

Holly

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2001 - 11:00 pm:

Stacey, I'm so very sorry for your loss. I know you did everything you could for Trevor. It's so hard to understand why these things happen. Take time to grieve, but not for too long - I'm sure there's another wonderful horse out there waiting to make your life full again. Best wishes to you.

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2001 - 8:06 am:

Thank you Cathleen and my deepest condolences Stacey. Looking at all the information this is not a surprising outcome and very well may relieve this horse of some, as yet undiscovered, suffering.
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2001 - 10:38 am:

Thank you Dr. O, for having this forum so we can help each other through good times and bad. I really appreciate having a site like this when I need someone to explain something, share something, or just hold my hand through a rough experience and say, "I've been there too". For the most part I have found all the people on this site to be kind and generous with their time, and sharing of their knowledge. Thanks for getting us all together and giving us this great site. I know how exhausting having a practice must be. To add all of us to your daily schedule must be mind blowing. I just wanted to tell you that I personally appreciate you, and the rest of the folks on this site very much.

Sincerely,
Cathie =^..^=

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2001 - 1:22 pm:

Stacy,
I am also sorry you had to put Trevor down. We will miss seeing him around the barn.

Carol & Darwin.

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2001 - 2:38 pm:

First let me state that I may have some of my facts above incorrect or out of order..As I read through the posts. I now realized Trevor didn't try to run through the fence, I thought that is what I was told. He was also fed Blue Seal Pacer not Hunter. We didn't try the round pen because a different vet I spoke with recommended we simply stop working Trevor. Plus my farm didn't have a round pen, we would of had to trailer him. This Round pen decision was not the opinon of my local vet. I was desperate for help and didn't get every detail documented right in my panic to type fast while I was at work.

Trevor was diagnosed with a brain tumor or cervical leison and I made the decision to have him put down at New Bolton. I thank everyone for their posts and support at a time it was most needed. I have wonderful memories of Trevor. He will always have a special place in my heart.

>
Stacy & Sir Trevor

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2001 - 9:33 pm:

Stacy,
Thank you for responding, during this painful time of loss, to our unasked question about what was really wrong with your Trevor. As you may know from experience owning other horses, the pain of your loss will dissipate and the good memories and knowledge you have gained from this experience will remain and give you wisdom and insight in your future human/horse relationships. (I have no doubt that there is a horse somewhere that needs you as much as you need him. May you find eachother when the time is right.)

Take care.
Holly
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