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Posted on Sunday, Jul 15, 2001 - 10:07 pm:

I have an 11 yo app gelding we rescued for abuse and neglect from a stable 1 1/2 yr ago. 1 yr ago when we put him in the round pen he would charge. We let him be. We did little tiny ground training exercises, desensitized and loved the heck out of him. Things are much different between us now. He trusts much more and I fear much less. I put him in the round pen and try to work him and it is a face off. He is alert,attentive,ears up, however I can't get him going from behind. He faces my every move in either direction with whole body not just head. I send the long line his way in attempt to get him moving and he just stands there facing me. After a bit of trying I get next to his shoulder and we walk the whole pen. Walk, halt...very well together. No halter, no lead. I try to get back in the middle and try to get him moving and he faces me. He does not act afraid. I give in and do some clicker training for a bit, remove him, rinse him and send him back to his pasture. My question, Is it a challenging stance when he faces me at this point?. Where can I go from here? I want to get him conditioned physically and ground trained well to verbal cues before I try to get on him. His history of brutal domination in his past must never reoccur. Thanks for any responses. Debbie

Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2001 - 7:11 am:

Hi, Debbie,
I have run into this problem before and think it may be that the horse knows that the answer to not working is to turn and face the handler. This horse seems to have learned it very well and is probably saying, "I'm doing it! I'm doing it! I don't have to work if I'm looking at her!"

The key, in my estimation, is that the horse does not have a built in "MOVE" cue, and that is imperative for all training. When you lead him, or work on him to lift is feet or lower his head, or move his body to the side when you are grooming, there should be a cue that you give for "MOVE." Most horses that are round penned learn the move cue in the pen, then when you go to work around them, lead them or ride them, you can give the verbal "MOVE" cue and they automatically translate it and move some part of their bodies somewhere.

Do you use a longe whip or lariat in the pen? I can't tell you for sure if your guy's actions are aggressive or not (from your description, it doesn't sound like it) but you don't want to get too close to his back end to get him moving if he IS at all aggressive.

Horses read body language very well, and it may be that your body isn't really saying, "Move away from me!" Sometimes when I have a horse that says, "Ok, that's enough work today; I'll just turn and face you now so we can get it over with," I flick my hands toward the horse with both arms extended as I take a lunging step toward his hip and while I'm giving the verbal "MOVE" cue. Usually, I flick the rope toward the horse's back end also, and if need be, will touch him on the rump or hock with the end of it. If we are asking for movement and not getting it, we end up teaching the horse that the "MOVE" cue and body language don't mean anything and then we make our job that much harder, so be patient and persevering. I tell my students, "You have to be more stubborn than your horse." Good luck.
Holly

Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2001 - 11:01 am:

Hi Holly, Thanks for the reply. I attempt to flick the rope at his back end to get him to move but he just keeps turning to face wherever I am. The few chances I got to get at his back end were when some other horse or person distracted him for a moment and he turned away from me. He did not move or go, just took the flicks and stood there or turned to face me again. I will keep trying. It is funny how when we first got him a piece of hay would scare him, now I can jump up and down waving my arms and he stands there just looking at me (probably thinking I a have turned into a real idiot). Part of me wants to just saddle and get on in a well cushioned arena and see what I have in him. He is a short app, 14.2, stocky, well built. If I go down it won't be far. The other part says, fool get control on the ground before you climb on. We will see in time. Thanks again.
Debbie

Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2001 - 2:21 pm:

Debbie,
I have done some Parelli Natural Horsemanship clinics, and in there it is recommended that one direct the energy at the base of the neck and shoulder, rather than at the hip. However, in the Parelli circling game, this is reinforced with the halter and 12 foot lead rope, which is used in the early stages.
You stand facing the horse, about an arm's length away. Then lead the nose to the right (as example), and, either by twirling the rope or tapping with the lungewhip on the shoulder, try to get him started. Of course, before you do this, you have played the "friendly game" (you can touch your horse all over with your hands and stroke him with the whip), the "porcupine game", moving the horse with you fingertips etc etc. It would be best to borrow or rent the video - it is hard to describe (and takes a while to get used to, especially if you are used to lunging a horse the traditional way). In fact, the "circling game" is game Number 5.
I do know that they do this funny demo in the clinics, which they call : the horse lunging the human. The demonstrator twirls his rope at the rump of the horse, and the horse keeps turning to face the human - the human ends up running around in a circle, while the horse executes a turn on the forehand. I am sure that works best with a Parelli trained horse - they just do it to illustrate why they direct the energy at the shoulder.
In the past, when I had a horse that did not get the idea of circling around me, I would use a helper to get the horse started. The helper walks with the horse, while the handler stays in the middle with the lunge whip.
Just some ideas,
Lilo

Posted on Monday, Jul 16, 2001 - 7:39 pm:

Hi, Debbie,
I just read your reply as well as Lilo's. I agree with Lilo about using a long lead to start the longing as an alternative. I didn't mention it before because you spoke of the horse as being aggressive and it seemed better to be farther away from him than closer, but if you feel safe with him on the lead, I recommend it also. Lilo is also right about directing the energy toward the neck and shoulder if the horse won't move off from behind. I have seen John Lyons really get after a horse that kept shouldering into him and refused to get out and away. He had the horse in a bridle and was holding the inside rein, but he really made it an unpleasant experience for the horse to stand there or to bump into him, so the horse finally got the message and responded to the "MOVE" cue and gradually moved out on the circle. I was going to suggest that you use another person to "get after" the horse while you used your body and voice to cue him to move as Lilo said she did. Just be very consistent in giving the cue and don't give up until you get SOMETHING on the horse to move. Praise every little effort on the horse's part. Do you have a dominant horse that you can ride in the ring to round pen him? He must move away from other horses when they cue him unless he IS the dominant horse in your "herd." In any case, he HAS to move before he can be trained, so keep up with your efforts. I know how you feel about just wanting to jump up on him, but I do feel, that in this case, you do want to make sure you can get him to move from the ground. You have no guarantees that you will be able to get him to move from his back, and a horse that won't move is an explosion waiting to happen. The training you do with him on the ground WILL carry over onto his back. Do you have any natural horsemanship type trainers near you who can come out for a couple of hours to give you a hand?
Holly

Posted on Monday, Oct 29, 2001 - 8:07 pm:

Hello to all,

I have somewhat the same problem, but, my 19 mo old stud colt knows how to drive and lunge but he acts like he has never done it before lately, so I have resorted to long lining him with a surcingle. When he thinks it's time to quit he does some what of the same thing. He whirls around and faces me as well, but when I try to get him going again he has tried to rear up at me. Does anyone have any ideas? Another problem is when I am driving him, he bits the side of the hackamore (the shank part) gets it in his mouth and suddenly he now has control, I have tried tying his mouth shut but he still manages to get the shank in his mouth, or if he can't he reaches around and tries biting the driving reins. He also knows what walk means but lately he ignores me and just stands there trying to bit the reins or the surcingle cinch, and when I lightly slapped both reins on his butt he tried bucking. I am getting very frustrated! I think I am going to resort to putting him into a D-ring snaffle, does any body have any ideas? I always try and only long line him for about 15 to 20 min max and then take him out driving with long lines, so he doesn't get bored with going in a circle all the time, but, he has developed an attitude with that also. If anyone has any ideas I would certainly appreciate it. Many Thanks, Sandy Mendez

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 30, 2001 - 8:02 am:

Sandy,
A couple things I think might be happening if his behavior has changed. One is that he is starting to "feel his oats" as a junior stud. I'd recommend gelding him now if that is your future plan for him.(And I base my personal opinion on gelding on the saying that a good stallion would make a great gelding).
I think your idea of moving to a snaffle is excellent for several reasons, one of which is there is no shank to grab.
I've driven horses a couple times and was told that slapping the reins on the butt is only done in the movies. Try driving him forward with the lunge whip.
If I'm reading your post correctly you're saying you long line him for 15-20 minutes and then take him out somewhere else and work him some more. If that's what you're doing, I think you may be exceeding his attention span by quite a bit.
You may also want to try going back to lunging by itself until you get the facing you and rearing part controlled. Moving him forward would be the key to that and it certainly would be easier without the long lines.
Good luck, I've got a 2 1/2 year old filly who is going through a snotty attitude stage so I know what its like.

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 30, 2001 - 8:35 pm:

Hi Jackie:

Thank You, for your reply, what I meant by when I work him for 15-20 min on long lining,then I just take him out for a walk just driving behind him. Also what I meant when I slap him, is that I just shake the reins along side of his rear end, not actually slapping him on the butt. The problem I have with longeing him is that he turns towards me, when he doesn't want to do it, and not even the lunge whip will turn him around and when I point the whip at his shoulders to move out that is when he starts to rear up, and if I do get him moving he just runs and shakes his head and of course tries pulling and then turns and faces me, at this point he won't listen at all, like I said he knows what whoa, walk and trot means, but when he doesn't want to do what I want him to, all that he has been taught is forgotten. Sorry I wasn't a little more explicit in my first message. I know what you mean by gelding him, but I want him to fill out a little more before doing so, he is not mean at all, just when he doesn't want to due somthing. Any additional ideas? any one? Thank You, Sandy Mendez

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 30, 2001 - 9:40 pm:

Sandy,
Are you working in a round pen or an arena or a field?
Holly

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 31, 2001 - 12:24 am:

Hi Debbie,
From everything I have ever read, the horse refusing to move is not a good thing at all. And since this one has a bad background and started out with charging, I would be VERY careful. Either get help from a professional, or at least attempt it with some protection. And do not get on this horse until you have all these issues worked out. A gal here local, horse rider all of her life just got dumped and hurt very very badly on an enexperienced horse!

One thing you can try, it's kinda of a John Lyons, Parelli combo (does he lead on line well?) and for safety, I would do it say on the opposite side of a wood fence even if you have one, you just need to make sure you are safe if you push some buttons, so that he doesn't charge over you.
I would have a whip, not to hurt with, but to tap his hiney, a go forward cue. Start lightly, meanwhile your body(bellybutton) is facing the direction you want to go, you might even have someone else doing the tapping at first, make each phase last about 3 seconds, then up the tap, not faster, just firmer, 3 sec, up the tap, be consistent, and at some point when he even 'looks' forward, or 'leans' forward, STOP! Praise, then start over with lightest tap, until eventually repeating this process he will start to move forward. Getting a horse to move forward when we ask is a very serious issue, and needs to be addressed before you do any riding. Again, just be SAFE! If he feels threatened at all, he may charge.
Note: While doing the tapping, don't look at him, look forward, same for the one doing the tapping. Do not exhibit any aggressiveness in your action, just a request. He will eventually learn it easier to respond to the slightest pressure, and that meanwhile you are not trying to hurt him.
Hope this made some sense to ya.

Melissa

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 31, 2001 - 3:43 am:

Just to relate a similar experience.....

I was asked to 'sort out' a horse whilst working at a stables... he persistently turned in and reared up towards his owner when being lunged. This horse WAS NOT joking, he really meant it. This un-nerved the owner considerably.

His behaviour was very 'colty' and on enquiry it transpired that he had only been gelded 3 months before the owner had received him - he was four.

I had to be VERY strong with my commands, and 'get after' him when lungeing - making sure as soon as he started to falter whilst on the circle, I pushed him on.

When his owner took over he knew it and persisted in being a 'sod'. This horse was 16.2hh, and quite formidable. The way we got round it was to lunge him on two reins (something which I do with my horses as a matter of progression when training anyway). When he decided to turn in, he got a pull on the outside rein and a forward command. This also eliminates having to 'attack' him with a whip....

Some horses object to the lunge line round their rear end to start with, but if your horse has already been long reined then he ought to be used to this.

Obviously this isn't the best possible situation, but it provided a safer training environment for both horse and owner, and avoided confrontation. Maybe worth a try?

Heidi

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 31, 2001 - 6:56 am:

Hello All Responding to Sandy,
I will be moving this into its own discussion in this forum under the title, "Rears while being driven." Sandy, don't forget when asking questions about your horse do not put that at the bottom of someone elses discussion.
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 31, 2001 - 8:41 pm:

Holly,

I lunge him in the corral and in a half fenced field. I worked him again today in the corral, and the only time he rears and comes at me is when I am lunging him to the right. Know I know that horses have a favorite side to them, but both sides need to be worked and trained. He not only rears but ears flat back and mouth open. Like I have said before he just started this nonsense. When he came at me this time I had the lunge whip in my hand and was able to stop him by hitting him in the chest with it. I guess my best bet would be to go back and long line him using two reins when I lunge him. Sandy Mendez

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 31, 2001 - 9:30 pm:

Hi, Sandy,
Whoa! Having a horse charge at you is not good:)
Things like this are so hard. If you give in, the horse thinks he has won and it reinforces his bad attitude. If you don't give in, you are taking a safety risk to yourself. You are very fortunate that he listened to the lunge whip. If you choose to go through this exercise again, I would do a lot more than give him the whip in the chest. I would make him think he made the worst decision in his life, and I would try to scare the bejeepers out of him in any way I could, with jumping, waving my arms, hollering and running straight at him, until he stopped and set back or moved away. At that point, I would relax, talk firmly but calmly, give him a couple of seconds to reconsider his mistake, and then ask for forward motion again, after which I would allow him to stop after a few steps or half a circle, and praise him, then repeat. Heidi is correct in saying that he has to keep forward motion when you ask for it.

Have you checked him for any physical problems? Is his attitude A-OK when going to the left? Are you lunging him in a bridle and/or saddle, or just with a halter, or with a caveson? Do you have a surcingle and side-reins on him?

The reason I asked about where you lunged him, was to see if you had him attached to a rope or were able to free-lunge him as is possible in a round pen. Since using the free-longing method, I really prefer it over using a longe-line. It's much easier to get turns because I don't have to worry about getting tangled in a line and I can ask for inside or outside turns. You would definitely want an outside turn from a horse that insists on getting too chummy. Also, I'd never make a very good roper as I get too careless with the rope and would probably end up caught in it.

God bless you with patience and keep you safe.
Holly

Posted on Thursday, Nov 1, 2001 - 5:59 pm:

Thanks Holly,

The only time he really get aggressive on lunging, is when I lunge him to the right, sometimes to the left but not nearly as aggressive as to the right. I am using a hackamore on him when I lunge him. Yes I do use a surcingle on him with side reins, which does for the most part stop him from coming at me, although he does try swinging his rear end out quickly and tries to face me and if I come towards him, to get him moving again, he tries to rear, not all the time, but he always gets aggressive working him to the right. Yesterday when I told you about rearing up with his ears pinned back and mouth open, I did get him moving again just one time around at first and then stopped to praise him, then went around one more time and praise again. Then called it a day. I think the only thing I can do to stop this, is just lunge him with the surcingle and side reins at this point? Sandy Mendez

Posted on Friday, Nov 2, 2001 - 12:48 pm:

Sandy,
Since he's got a problem going to the right, have you checked to see if he's got a physical limitation? My mare used to pin her ears back and buck when I asked for a canter to the right. I started doing some excercises to help limber her up (Making her reach for a small piece of carrot at her side and rump so that she's both bending and stretching). It's really helped. Plus she enjoys them. I've even caught her doing this just to ask me for a treat now. I also do some of the TTEAM stretches with her.
Also, do you first lunge to the right or the left when you are starting out? This might help you figure out if he truely is having problems going to the right or if he views changing directions as a point where he wants to assert his desire to stop.
Just some thoughts. Sandi

Posted on Friday, Nov 2, 2001 - 7:44 pm:

Sandy, Where do you attach the side reins on a hackamore? I have never longed with side reins on a hackmore (do you mean a mechanical hackamore?) and I would think that a snaffle bit would be more appropriate and would cause less discomfort to your horse. Maybe it would be good to try, just to see if it helps. Also, what is the length to which you have your side reins set? Are you using them to teach a head set?
Holly

Posted on Saturday, Nov 3, 2001 - 1:50 pm:

Sandy,
Not having raised a lot of foals myself, I'd be interested in everyone's opinion of whether leaving them whole helps in filling out. Even if it turns out to be true, I sure would balance that against my safety with a stud. I have a hoof shaped scar on my shoulder where my first (and only) stallion knocked me down and stepped on me as he ran off. He though lunging was beneath his dignity and hated it. The "coming at you" is typical stud behavior.
Jackie

Posted on Thursday, Nov 8, 2001 - 5:43 pm:

Whoever said that horses are dumb animals just needs to read this line of discussion to know it's not true---it amazes me how easily our 4-footed friends get us trained and how hard it is for us to train them!!


Deborah, I would be inclined to put a saddle on your guy, a snaffle bridle, and run long lines from the bit through the stirrups. Stand in the middle of your round pen (make sure the horse is against the wall--you may have to be slightly away from center depending on size of pen). The outside rein should be behind his rump, above his hocks, and very light, if any contact. Then use your lunge whip and ask for forward wih a wave of the whip and perhaps a cluck.

If that doesn't get a reaction, ratchet it up until you do. If he attempts to turn toward you, use that outside rein to keep him straight. You can even keep using the outside rein until he is turned facing the other direction. And again, ask him to go forward! Your inside rein actually acts as a pully rein and should provide enough leverage that he can't yank you off your feet.

If you are working in a round pen, about the only way for either of you to get into trouble is if he stops moving forward, because then you risk him spinning around toward you and getting tangled in the lines.

And once you get him going, DON'T STOP. Several laps of brisk trotting in each direction is a good start, and eventually adding canter if your pen is large enough. If he bucks due to the saddle, or getting angry about the lunge whip, just keep him trotting or cantering forward. YOU get to decide when it's time for him to stop.

Once you take away turning and facing you as a way to avoid work, he will then try another approach. As a dear teacher once told me, horses are large grass eating mammals that only want to be out in a pasture with their buddies. Most will not come willingly to their work if you are continually giving them a way out.

It is not unreasonable for us to expect an hour or so a day of work in exchange for 23 hours of food and care.

Laura

Posted on Thursday, Nov 8, 2001 - 5:44 pm:

Whoever said that horses are dumb animals just needs to read this line of discussion to know it's not true---it amazes me how easily our 4-footed friends get us trained and how hard it is for us to train them!!


Deborah, I would be inclined to put a saddle on your guy, a snaffle bridle, and run long lines from the bit through the stirrups. Stand in the middle of your round pen (make sure the horse is against the wall--you may have to be slightly away from center depending on size of pen). The outside rein should be behind his rump, above his hocks, and very light, if any contact. Then use your lunge whip and ask for forward with a wave of the whip and perhaps a cluck.

If that doesn't get a reaction, ratchet it up until you do. If he attempts to turn toward you, use that outside rein to keep him straight. You can even keep using the outside rein until he is turned facing the other direction. And again, ask him to go forward! Your inside rein actually acts as a pully rein and should provide enough leverage that he can't yank you off your feet.

If you are working in a round pen, about the only way for either of you to get into trouble is if he stops moving forward, because then you risk him spinning around toward you and getting tangled in the lines.

And once you get him going, DON'T STOP. Several laps of brisk trotting in each direction is a good start, and eventually adding canter if your pen is large enough. If he bucks due to the saddle, or getting angry about the lunge whip, just keep him trotting or cantering forward. YOU get to decide when it's time for him to stop.

Once you take away turning and facing you as a way to avoid work, he will then try another approach. As a dear teacher once told me, horses are large grass eating mammals that only want to be out in a pasture with their buddies. Most will not come willingly to their work if you are continually giving them a way out.

It is not unreasonable for us to expect an hour or so a day of work in exchange for 23 hours of food and care.

Laura
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