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  Discussion on Discipline for spooking?
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Posted on Monday, Jul 23, 2001 - 10:58 pm:

Is it appropriate to discipline a horse for spooking? My 5 year old QH gelding bolts/sometimes rears and spins when I'm on his back in both the arena and on the trail. When my trainer is on him, he does this less. Obviously he senses her confidence level is greater than mine. But my question is, what is the appropriate way to address this? Do I circle around and make him face his fear? Do I punish him for the bolting or rearing?

Posted on Monday, Jul 23, 2001 - 11:29 pm:

Excellent question. I have been told differing things by different people. ARRRGH...

I have a TB. When she spooks I was told to let her be. Don't make an issue out of it and don't make her address her fears. Just move her head off the item she is afraid of and just side pass it if necessary. Don't reprimand, just pretend it never happened.

On the other hand, with my QH many have told me address the fear, make her see from the left, do it again on the right, circle it. And don't let her get the best of you.

Could their personalities be SO different?

Quite honestly, I do neither. I take the situation as it comes. I do bring both nearer to the thing in question or at times I totally ignore it, or just trying to settle them is enough for me. Some times I make them stand near the thing that spooked them. Sometimes, if getting off your horse is needed than do it.

I do find that my TB learned quickly that if she spooked, she could get me off easily. Or she will spook because she is tired and bored and wants to go in. It took a while but i got her number (faking it) on this score. At these times, i reprimand her. But only you know when this is happening.

This is a good question. I hope a few trainers or behaviour experts add their thoughts on this.

Rearing and bolting is UN-acceptable, though. I would think you have a big problem on your hands with that. And If you can't control his bolting, than you might want to go back to the beginning lessons to see where you can teach him to spook or allay his fears but in place. They can be fearful thats just natural, but they need to be confident in you that you aren't going to kill them. That is where the bolting and rearing comes in. They don't trust you, want you off, cause you are stopping them from doing what they want. JMO on this.

jo

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2001 - 5:21 am:

Hello All,
I think the best response comes from understanding the nature of the problem. If a horse truly spooks at something, you know the feeling....like electricity has passed through him and you, then discipline, say like a crop between the ears is not appropriate and may reinforce the idea that there is something to be spooked about.

But as to bolting, rearing, and spinning these do need appropriate corrective measures that first focus on regaining control even if this means dismounting and lunging with an emphasis on controlled forward motion and halt. As the behavior is going on I think some amount of negative stimulus to get the horses attention is appropriate after some degree of contol is achieved. As an example...

Last week while riding in the countains I was working a 3 year old that at the beginning of the ride was refusing to go forward on the trails. This horse had some lunge and ring work under saddle had showed no problems in the arena. His avoidance was light rearing and backing when asked to go forward. Not good in the mountains and he had a penchant for trouble on narrow trails with steep DrOp offs. When this occurred I would dismount, walk him to the closest field, tie two long leads together and lunge using a tree limb or dressage crop.

I would eventully get the same behavior on the lunge and the horse would learn, with the help of the crop, in this order: clucks MEANT forward, walk MEANT walk, whoa MEANT whoa, and backing up when he was suppose to be doing any of the above was a sure way to get switched even if it meant backing all the way across the field: he was switched until he stood.

It only took three sessions, one at the beginning of the first 3 rides with each session easier than the last. For the last 4 rides all I have had to do is touch his rump with the crop when he begins to throw a fit and he responds with going forward. They are getting less and less frequent.

I admit to having to do a little desensitization with this horse: each day I spend a lot of time letting him know I am his buddy until he seems relaxed. Before each ride the crop is introduced as his friend and associated with rubbing and lots of good boys and he is rubbed all over with it until he relaxes. I think he is going to be OK.
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2001 - 7:42 am:

Hi, guys,
Just as different people have the ability to distinguish subtle nuances of language and others don't, so do some horses have the thought processes to distinguish between the danger posed by a plastic bag and others do not.

The horse should never be disciplined for spooking. Some horses just "see more" and tend to react by startling. They have to have a second to process whether or not the newspaper hanging from the mailbox is going to hurt them.

On the other hand, turning away from the scary object and refusing to go forward off your forward cue are unacceptable actions putting the horse in control of the rider. After giving the frightened horse the second or two he needs to see the object, he needs to respond to your cue to advance. Turning a horse away from what frightens him or allowing him to head back the way you came only reinforces the fear and makes it twice as difficult when you approach the object the next time.

By holding the rein closest to the object and turning your horse to face his boogey man everytime you ride, your horse will learn to spook in place and face his fears. I have found one rein also discourages a horse from rearing, especially when accompanied by STRONG forward cues from both legs. In my experience, crops often exacerbate the situation, but if the horse is totally comfortable with the crop and understands its purpose, as Dr. O. has done with his horse, then it can help with the forward cue if you need more than leg.

One rein and forward, one rein and forward. The forward can first just be that the horse is leaning forward and seeing the object head on. Then, when the horse has come to his senses, the forward cue has to definitely mean, "take a forward step."

I'm not a proponent of having a horse go over to touch the thing he is afraid of, since that does seem to be making more out of the situation than is necessary. After he is moving forward off your leg, you can start with a clean slate and continue your ride.

If your horse is uncommonly fearful of everything it sees, have its eyes checked, and if the eyes are okay, do "spook-proofing" in the ring with someone else to help you by waving umbrellas, grain bags, thumping buckets, or just setting up a trail-type ring class for you to practice. It is important that you are proficient with being able to shorten your rein on the scary side quickly and almost subconsciously. Keep your shoulders back behind your hips when you do it so your tail stays in the saddle. Tails out of saddles, especially with a spooky horse, are not good things.

Holly

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2001 - 9:58 am:

Hi. I have a 5 year old who has always been spooky. He is a warmblood TB mix. He used to bolt from the spooky things, and most things spooked him. In particular, he would go past a tree outside the arena several times, then, by majic, he would suddenly be afraid of it, which was very frustrating. I took him for professional training. The trainer said he used the spooking to get out of thinking, as he is very immature for his age. So, the trainer would make him work harder after a spook with more transitions and a longer work time. I found after I got him home that he no longer ran off on a spook, but kind of veered away from the scary thing. Also, I found that he no longer spooked at inappropriate things, but really only when he can't see around something. Outside, he is much better. Inside, we have long doors that are usually halfway open, and he can't see around them. When I have a person stand in the doorway, he is fine. So, anyway, what I do is to make him go forward and ignore his spooking. I eventually ask him to bend inside and flex at the jaw, as I find that relaxes him. If I do this at the start of a ride, he gets better and better. If I overract and get angry, he gets worse, which supports the something to fear theory.

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 24, 2001 - 6:32 pm:

I do believe that in some spooking cases, discipline/reaction is called for. The reason is that the horse stopped paying attention to the rider and put more importance on an outside influence. However I only would apply this to a well-trained horse who should know better. My show mare tended to be spooky rather than outright defiant. And this would even be at home passing an object she had seen many times before. I agree to not make any bigger deal than it takes to get past the object. But I do ask that she get back on the bit and it that doesn't work, a nudge with the heel or even a spur gets her attention back to me.

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2001 - 6:59 am:

I think Jackie and Alicia make valid points: horses tend to spook because they have too much time to worry about what is happening around them and they have quit thinking so much about listening to the rider. You all have seen these horses that chronically spook on the trail, they appear to be looking for something to bugger at. The rider can decrease the incidence by giving the horse something else to think about: practice gait transitions, lateral movements, etc.
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2001 - 8:04 pm:

One rein -- asking the horse to give to the pressure of the bit and come to you with his head and mind, is asking for discipline. Asking the horse to move forward on your forward cue, (mine is both legs behind the girth and/or a verbal cue) is asking for discipline, also. At the same time the rider is asking for disciplined behavior from the horse, the horse is being disciplined with cues he understands. Both actions will, in my experience with bucking, rearing, backing at 30 miles an hour, jigging, and generally inattentive to the rider horses, will keep you safer than any other method I've found, and will train your horse to face the spooky object, and after facing it, move past it (only at a walk, please, so the horse doesn't learn to run past the scary things). I think there may be a problem with semantics in our use of the word "discipline."
Holly

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2001 - 10:03 pm:

I'm also a believer in one rein, especially since I ride in a sidepull (actually an English scrawbridge and really like it). Here's my spooking scenario. Just yesterday went off myself down the road from pasture. Arab mare stops dead in tracks to assess a rustling in the tall grass. Give her about a minute to stare at whatever, then one rein her away from point of interest and give go forward with kiss and leg squeeze. So I'm not turning her toward the spooky whatever in the bushes, I'm letting her look then turning away and forward. A little further down and she decides to turn for home. One rein around in direction she wants to go, but making full circle to face where I want to go. It's not a pretty circle, lots of side-stepping - but we do end up headed in my desired direction, another kiss and squeeze and forward we go. My one rein works, but away and around, not toward. Question. What are members thoughts about petting and reassuring during a spook stop. Some training books say do not pet or talk nicely because that's rewarding them for spooking. Other trainers say pet and reassure. I go with the latter, as my mare is a sensitive gal who really listens to my voice. What works for you?

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2001 - 10:22 pm:

I have a spooky pony who is a go go machine. I have been working for 8 weeks on 1 rein stops with him. He looks for spooks. One thing with him is that it is an excuse not to listen. When I do the one rein stop he stops and I hold his head in the turn direction until he gives to the pressure...sometimes may take 20 seconds. He bobs his head and he's signaling me OK I'll listen. He tried to back and rear away from a door that he hates (we've only been by and and through it 100 times), but I nipped him in the bud with the 1 rein stop. He walked through it several times and anytime he tried ANYTHING I 1 rein stopped him. It ends the pony moments and tantrums. absolutely great technique for spooks. With my walker, I just have to talk him through it, he truely knows that I am looking at the same spooky thing and if I say it is ok, he's ok too. He rarely spooks. He'll walk by anything once I've told him it's ok. Great horse!

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 25, 2001 - 11:12 pm:

Linda,
I understand your philosophy about the one rein and moving away from the spooky object. You obviously know your horse and can keep her with you by turning her away, then back. In my experience, it works best to ask the horse to NOT turn away from the object, mostly because a spooking horse's initial response is to FLEE AWAY, and I want the horse to know that is not an option, even at the start of the spook. The final result will be a horse that may startle, even start to turn away, but will turn toward the object on his own with only a slight cue on the rein closest to the spooky thing. By asking your horse to continue the whirling away from the object, you put yourself in more danger of coming off when the horse whirls and/or pivots. You obviously have a great seat!

Hmmm. Patting and reassuring the horse. . . I'd have to say that it depends first on the immediate safety of the horse and rider. Sometimes there is no time to pat and reassure. For example, when riding on the road when a car is coming up behind, but there is something scary happening in the field on your right. You have to keep hold of your right rein and ask for forward because your life depends on it. After the horse responds, then you can say, "Good girl!! What a good girl you are!" If we are alone on the trail, and the horse sees a bear or a moose, then I may have time to say, "Oh, you silly horse. It's okay; it's just a moose. Come on; let's go." In most of the spooky situations I have encountered, it is first and most important that I maintain control of the horse's position in relation to the spooky object. If there is time for patting and reassuring, it is not just to calm the horse about the object, but to reward the horse for the correct response to my cues to turn toward the spooky thing and stand. If you get the horse's body to respond first to your cues, then you can get his mind to listen. When horses spook, they aren't thinking; they are reacting, so it is important to have control of their physical bodies first, then you can get their minds to come to you.

It is easier to gauge what your response should be if you know your horse and can read his response. If you are riding a horse you don't know very well, I recommend one rein toward the object and the forward signal to prevent the horse from thinking about going backwards.
Holly

Posted on Thursday, Jul 26, 2001 - 12:15 am:

Hi,
I am new to this site so when not if Imake gross errors please help.I just wanted to add that the Aug.edition of Equus has what I think is a good
article on building a better trail horse which covers spooking.
Daryl

Posted on Thursday, Jul 26, 2001 - 1:50 pm:

Hi Holly, thanks for your excellent response. I am very fortunate in that my horse does not whirl or bolt with a spook. Her response is to stop and stare, even if the spooky thing (a cow in neighbor's pasture) is moving toward us. If a car is coming up behind us, she likes to turn and stare at the car until it passes. That's why I let her look, think about it, and then turn her away. Or if something pops out unexpectedly (like a bird flying up, a wild pig running across the trail), she will take a few quick spooky side steps and then continue on. I do know horses who spook, spin and bolt and that is very very scary. I'm lucky to have my steady little trail girl. Guess my biggest challenge is that "let's go home now" dance, but we're working on it. Practicing one-rein stops in the arena and we're getting pretty good. She brings her head right around, slows and stops consistently. It's a very good safety device and I need to practice it out on the trail more often. Thanks again for your reponse!

Posted on Thursday, Jul 26, 2001 - 5:34 pm:

For a true spook, I think it is best to basically ignore it and try to ride through it as best as you can. I define a spook as anything from a loss of concentration and pause to a sharp turn and run away. There are assorted degrees in between. A spook is a fear response to something scarey to the horse. By trying to halt a spook, you might get a rear in response to a lot of mouth pressure. I prefer to keep the horse moving (that satifies his urge to flee) but do so in a controlled manner.

Often, if you are alert, you can anticipate a spook by both the way a horse changes its movement, twitches its ears or cranes its neck. You can feel the tension through your seat. There is a moment of opportunity to distract the horse and make a new request - I like a shoulder-in, shoulder-fore or small circle away from the spooky object. Many western riders "disengage" the hind end - basically get the horse moving a bit sideways so the 4 hooves are not 100% aligned. The disengaging sort of slows the horse a bit and makes him a little less able to tear off or rear up.

The more you can relax and ride through a spook, as if nothing happened, the more your body will tell the horse it is no big deal and let's continue. If you can keep the horse's mind busy on his work with lots of different requests, he'll be less likely to spoke, too, as you are occupying his mind. (You know that old saw about "an idle mind is the devil's playground?")

All this assumes you have good basics established - go, whoa, turns, proper seat, etc. It often helps with green horses to work on basics in the arena or on the lunge before setting out on the trail.

I would continue to work on schooling basics with the thought of improving the horse's confidence and responsiveness to you. A confident, responsive horse is less likely to over react and will listen to his rider sooner when he does. He will also learn to trust his rider.

Since spooks are a fear response, I agree that you should make your responses as fearless and assured as possible.

Young horses take time to develop. Some may always have a bit of an edge to them, but many of us like that when we can channel it to our purposes.

Sometimes a horse balks at an object in fear - i.e. stops and stares and won't move. Often you can turn him and reapproach and get a little closer. This may take several successive turns, getting closer each time. When you are "away" and in the horse's comfort area, sit quietly and let him think about it each time. Then move forward, again. A balk is also a response to fear - don't pet or soothe, merely give the horse time to figure it out and develop some bravery. Often a more secure horse can give yours a lead, showing him that the object is not really all that bad.

Cheers.

Posted on Thursday, Aug 2, 2001 - 4:15 am:

If you live in or near NC, GA or FL, come to a clinic by Tek Marciniak for despooking your horse. He is a nationally certified mounted police trainer who holds clinics for civilians.

I've signed up for the clinic outside Raleigh, NC and will pass on what we learn if I make it through. We learn the same methods used by the mounted police who of course need to be able to take their horses through every situation possible.

You can read more about him at www.tekmarciniak.com or www.nchorsenews.com

Chris-if I can do this, you should join me!
Liz Anderson
Member:
Cowgrl

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 23, 2004 - 2:41 pm:

I know this is really late in responding but just found this topic.

Here's a trail tip to prevent spooking. When you're out and about in the mountains and you come across backpackers, have the person stand on the downhill side of the trail and speak as you approach. The horse doesn't know this monster with this huge hump on his back is human so needs to find out that it is. Most horses will sigh in relief as soon as they hear a human voice and realize it is not something they need to fear. Remember to ask them to stand on the downhill side as most predators come from above. Make sure they don't reach out to the horse or hide behind trees, the horse will see this as a threat.

My mustang is so good about everything we come across. I have 30 hours on him so far and he is doing great. There is a culvert on a bend in this one trail we ride that has been there since time immemorial. Every horse that goes by it spooks at it. Except mustang dude. He saw it, stopped in his tracks to take a good long look, then approached it and stuck his nose on it for a closer inspection. After which he looked around and continued down the trail. So far he has been exposed to bicycles, strollers, motorcycles, joggers, and everything in between taking it all in stride. For a horse that was running wild less than two years ago, this is pretty cool. Can you tell I'm in love?

Happy trails.
Holly
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