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Discussion on Horse refusing to lift absessed foot
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New Member:
Brendaj
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 - 6:32 pm:
I have been reading about getting horses to pick up their feet. I have a appy mare who developed an abscess on right front hoof.. she USED to be good about her feet Now- she refuses to pick up feet and even will lean hard on me when I ask for her foot.. I have tried pushing against her shoulder, squeezing her tendons, chestnut etc.. about the only thing that's working right now is to back her and grab the foot as it comes up, but then she's off balance..
She has totally turned stubborn and is fed up with soaks, cleaning and bandaging.
I am looking for advice on how to "undo" this- I still need to keep after this rt foot especially- abscess has turned into a gravel now..
Thanks in advance for all input
Brenda
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 - 10:50 pm:
Hi, Brenda. Welcome to HA.
Backing your mare up a step or having her step forward a step to get her ready to lift the foot you want, is a good thing. So many times, I see folks trying to lift a foot on which a horse is standing . . . The way to get the horse off the foot you want is to get her to lean forward or back or take a step so that she has her weight balanced on the other three feet.
I have found that if I tap, tap, tap, tap on the horse's heel bulb with the back side of a hoof pick or with my curled fingers (I put my finger through the loop of a metal pick and let it swing and bump, bump, bump and hit the bulb of the heel with the back side of the point) . . . until the horse begins to lift the foot . . . even just STARTS to lift the foot . . . and then I stop tapping IMMEDIATELY . . . and praise and wait a couple of seconds and then do it again . . . I always use a verbal cue, too. After horses have been with me for awhile (and different horses learn at different rates) all I have to do is get in position to lift the foot and say, "Get this one up," and the horse will lift it.
If your horse has stopped trusting, then it will take some time and consistency to regain that trust and automatic obedience. Don't stress. Take your time. Be really casual . . . and don't give up . . . Leave yourself time to do what you need to do . . . don't rush . . . and if you always ask the same way and reward on every little "try," you will get the reaction you want with your horse.
Also, you may already know this, but if you are working on a front foot and the horse tries to pull it away from you, stand up and hold the hoof up to the elbow . . . and hold, hold, hold until you feel the horse relaxing . . . then, you can either choose to let the foot down and praise and pick it up again, or you can continue to do a little work on it, let it down with some praise, and pick it up a few seconds later to continue your doctoring. To help your horse trust and overcome her fear that you might not ever give her hoof back to her, it is good to let the hoof down at times when the horse least expects it, as long as the horse is relaxed and not trying to pull the hoof away from you.
Always praise, and always ask the same way . . . and don't give up. You are training your horse, and time, consistency, and praise are the proven ingredients of good training.
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Member:
Banthony
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 - 9:24 am:
Brenda, my thoroughbred foundered and then abscessed both front feet. Previously he had always picked up his feet with no problem. But after the founder, he had a lot of trouble putting all his weight on one front foot or the other. So he became very hard to get him to pick his front feet up.
Maybe check both front feet for soreness?
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New Member:
Brendaj
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 - 10:41 am:
Thanks Holly and Linda, I will work on the trust issue- I know that she is communicating to me that she REALLY doesn't want that foot messed with... One day when she wouldn't pick it up I decided to just try her other feet-she picked them up quickly and willingly.. I don't think there is a problem with soreness on the other front hoof as there is no heat, swelling, digital pulses, pointing or off gait on that side there has only been lameness, swelling and pulse on the bad one, Plus she hasn't been as bad about picking up the other foot as the abcsess in the rt hoof has drained.
It's getting her to trust that I'm not out to hurt her again.. I feel bad that some of what we've had to do Has hurt her, but of course can't explain that to her..I guess it's just going to take some time to rebuild trust and to reward the little efforts
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New Member:
Brendaj
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 7:31 pm:
just wanted to update on Dolly...things haven't been going so well..after one particularly tough day where all I succeeded in doing was frustrating the both of us and ending up basicly soaking her foot in what was by then contaminated water(she stepped out of the tub into the dirt, other foot went in the tub and so forth...) she is now starting to limp worse and her leg is swelling up again. The crack at the top of the hoof appears to be closing up now too.
I haven't tried to soak again- giving bute and am waiting till she perhaps is sore enough that she'll not rest all her weight back on the foot when I try to pick it up. I have bought some animailinex (sp?) poultice pads that I want to try once it breaks open again.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 31, 2006 - 6:35 am:
Brenda,
I heard recently where someone modified the technique described in Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavior and Training » Modifying a Horses Behavior: Conditioned Responses to teach a horse to lift its foot for trimming. The abscess would be better if it is treated by drainage from the bottom but may require treatment when picked up.
DrO
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New Member:
Brendaj
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 31, 2006 - 5:54 pm:
Hi Dr O,
Is the article you're referring to the one under the "Modifying a Horse's behavior " with excerpts by Dr. Sue McDonnell ? I read that and am trying to figure out how to apply these techniques to my horse. I'm wondering should I reward "hoof lifting" on the other three legs to see if I can get her to want to lift the sore one? Or is the retraining solely focused on the "problem" leg? Dolly doesn't have problems lifting the other legs, it's just the sore one that she doesn't want touched-- which I can totally understand--however, as you commented, that foot needs treatment, possibly by having my vet come open it up again. Which will, I'm afraid, just reinforce the "don't touch that leg" response from Dolly.
I am considering asking the vet to sedate her, open the foot up and float her teeth while he's at it...does that sound like a reasonable approach? If she's out of it- perhaps won't remember the pain, and/or won't associate it with me(which is why I make my husband give her her shots )..Seriously, I am mainly concerned with after-care--if she continues to not pick up that foot-how on earth am I going to properly keep that foot clean, dressed and dry?
any suggestions?
Also,today, in order to "sort of" soak her foot, I led her onto a tarp, gave her some grain in a pan and poured warm water over her hoof.. she calmly stood and let the water puddle around her hoof...This is better than nothing I'm thinking- at least it might help soften dirt and the sole so foot might drain by itself, however, it is by no means "clean"-meaning her hoof isn't picked out so is still full of crud when standing in the water.. What is your opinion on this? Am I helping or hurting the situation?
Sorry for the long-windedness and thank you in advance for your thoughts on my situation.
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Member:
Leilani
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 31, 2006 - 6:44 pm:
Brenda,
John Lyon's Perfect Horse, Oct. 2006 has a good article re: The Carrot or the Stick and uses picking up feet as an example. Dr. Hanggi of the Equine Research Foundation is quoted.
I tried her method on my young mare and it works. I was able to pick-up her feet before, but this method makes it so much easier especially if a foot is injured. Best of luck. Leilani
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2006 - 10:03 am:
Yes that is the correct article and there is no one way Blake, study the principles and tips in the article and come up with a step by step plan.
I find it helps to write down the steps that lead to failure, starting with half a dozen good steps that can be rewarded, and then step where desired behavior first falters. Now start a new list beginning with your successful steps then substituting for that failed step what you want the horse to do. Make it small, the smaller the better, and finish the list with the subsequent steps with the complete behavior desired.
Now using the recommendations in the article train your horse. You should be able to accomplish this in a hour or so if you apply the principles in a manner the horse can understand as the correct, and only the correct, behavior gets rewarded. Remember the idea is to create an environment where the horse is looking not so much for the next reward as they are looking for the next correct behavior.
You could start by working on the feet she will pick up to get the idea of a "correct action" -> reward, but remember it is withholding reward when the desired behavior is not done creates the desire to do right.
DrO
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2006 - 10:07 am:
Weird that he won't unload the sore foot. You'd think he would be reluctant to pick up the healthy one instead.
I don't know how much bute you're giving, but maybe it isn't enough to relieve his pain? Perhaps more would make him more cooperative so you can get on with the healing administrations?
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New Member:
Brendaj
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2006 - 11:20 am:
Hi all-
Leilani, I'm not familiar with "John Lyon's Perfect Horse" is this a magazine? - I'll have to call around to see if I can get a hold of a copy. What did you do with your mare that helped? How old is your mare?
Erika- I know it sounds totally off that it's the bad foot she leans on--you'd think she'd be glad to have someone hold it up and take pressure off it, but she is a VERY stubborn horse at times.. her typical response is to stop dead, refuse to budge or to try and shove you with her head if she's really annoyed. Obviously, all of these bad habits feed into this foot issue- I've let her get away with this kind of stuff too long and now when it's important that she be willing and yielding- she won't. It really brings home to me that having a horse that more or less is cooperative is not REALLY cooperative -they are just tolerating you. Boy, do I have my work cut out for me... I suppose I could drug her up and get her to not care what I do with her- but I'd rather have her willing to work with and for me..I'm looking more long term here- I need to get her over this abscess, but more importantly, I need to work on her overall attitude and behavior.
I'm hoping that is where all this "behavior modification" and positive reenforcement stuff that Dr O and Lelani are referring to will make the difference. I need to learn more about training --it's my inexperience and spoiling her that's gotten me here in the first place. She is NOT a "bad horse"- she has just had an inexperienced and wussy trainer (ME!) and I need to get the know-how to overcome this. I have a friend that has been taking Parrelli training and as soon as Dolly is better, I intend on starting to take lessons with her.
Thank you Dr O and Lelani for steering me in the right direction to get started!
Brenda
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2006 - 5:59 pm:
Okay, Brenda, I certainly understand now. I have one of those "princesses" myself. Shoulda recognized the type!
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Member:
Brendaj
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 2, 2006 - 6:39 pm:
Yeah Erika, that about sums her up! Yesterday, I had the vet come float her teeth and He couldn't get her to lift her foot until her poked her with the point of his pocket-knife (lightly) then she hopped around and was a brat. He looked at her foot once she was doped up for the dental and said there is no overt signs of abscesses and as she was showing less lameness, he told me to just keep and eye on her and if she starts getting worse we'll go form there.
Today I started on the "behavior Modification" per the article Dr O mentioned. I worked with her on picking up both front feet. I got her to lift both feet (briefly)...not where I can hold the foot or clean it out, but this is MUCH improved! I am very impressed by how quickly she is starting to come around. I'll just keep working on her.
Brenda
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