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Discussion on Negligence and Culpability...What Should I do?
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Member:
dr3ssag3
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 3, 2007 - 5:42 pm:
Hi Everyone.
I recently witnessed an incident involving my mare, her pasturemate (another mare) and a gelding recently brought into my barn that has me very upset, and I'm wondering what recourse, if any, I have.
On Tuesday, 18 September, the aforementioned gelding was acting aggressively toward the two mares, biting the one through the fence and causing my mare, Contessa, to run around like mad, rear up, and fall on her right side. She's been off ever since, and an emergency vet call has found that she has a bruised rib. Thankfully, it's nothing horribly serious BUT I'm now looking at even more vet bills.
I realize that there are inherent risks associated with turning horses out in pasture BUT it was brought to my attention that his horse has a history of aggressiveness toward mares (he's had to leave at least one establishment because he practically tore the barn down) that the owner failed to mention to the barn owner and manager. To me, this reeks of negligence, especially since I've never had a problem with Contessa in turnout in the 9 years I've owned her. However, she is a mare and will do mareish things if provoked. And I subsequently can't help but think that had this horse not been turned out in an adjacent paddock the incident would never have occurred.
To be quite honest, if it were my horse that caused the problem and I knew it was a risk, I would have at the very least told management, but I would also offer to pay at least part of the resulting vet bills.
So, I guess I'm just curious to know what you all think...I really don't want to have unnecessary tension at the barn but I really think this woman needs to know that she screwed up. A few people have mentioned small claims court, but I must confess that I'm not at all well versed in equine law as it pertains to this issue. Anyone have any recommendations?
Thanks,
Dawn
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 3, 2007 - 6:10 pm:
Accidents happen with horses and the dynamics between horses can change even in a herd that has been together for months.
I would definitely speak to the owner, kindly, and ask if her horse has had aggressive issues before, and let her tell you up-front. Also, don't go by hearsay. Call the previous boarding facilities if you know where they are, and ask the managers there if there is a reason to be concerned about said horse.
If the horse is known to be aggressive, he needs to be placed in an area with no mares. If that can't be done, then he'll have to move again.
Rachel Kosmal McCart of Equine Legal Solutions
(www.equinelegalsolutions.com) is an equine lawyer in Oregon and CA.
Also may find some info from Julie Fershtman of Michigan. She has written books on Equine Law which are available online. Not sure if she has a website, but you can "google" her.
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Member:
dr3ssag3
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 3, 2007 - 8:50 pm:
I've spoken with the owner of the facility where he was evicted...it definitely establishes prior "bad acts" where mares are concerned.
I wouldn't make a big stink over this if there wasn't such an obvious lack of integrity on her part. I cannot fathom why one wouldn't disclose this kind of information...altering the turnout rotation is such a small thing that barn management can easily accommodate.
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 3, 2007 - 10:26 pm:
So sorry Dawn. Of course you are right that this owner should have disclosed her horse's prior history, and should feel responsible for exposing other horses to injury.
I run a small boarding stable. Years ago, a woman moved a gelding in from another place across town. I always question people about their horses-- any vices? Any "priors?" No to all. We talked about turnout, and something was off. Come to find out, her horse had thrown a filly to the ground and trampled it nearly to death. When I asked her about this story, she had CONVINCED herself that it was not her poor woobie's problem, but everyone else's-- the barn management, the other horses, etc.. People are excellent at kidding themselves and blaming other people. I have no doubt this owner had convinced herself that she and her horse were misunderstood victims.
Very glad the injuries will pass. As they say around here, the bills are probably tuition in life, and not likely to be recoverable.
Best of luck sending this miserable pair on their way.
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Member:
hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 3, 2007 - 10:42 pm:
One of the forms Rachel McCart has is a "Boarder Application Form." I suppose that someone could lie on the form as well as not, but it seems like a good way to let folks initially know what is expected and to find out if they can abide by the facility rules.
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Member:
heidih
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 4, 2007 - 9:20 am:
I'm sorry for what happened to your mare. I understand that you are upset that you didn't know this gelding was aggressive towards mares.
I have a question, though. If you (or the Barn management) had known about his aggression, what could have been done differently?
It sounds like he was not in the same paddock as your mare. Yes he was biting over or through the fence, but your horse was not in direct danger as she had room to move away. This horse didn't directly attack and savage your horse. Your horse simply got upset that a horse in the next paddock was acting aggressive.
Do I have that right?
I don't think you have any recourse. It is not the gelding's owner's fault that your mare reacted to him being in the next paddock. She didn't place him in a paddock with your horse and he didn't directly cause any injury to your horse.
I hate to be so negative, but horses will be horses.
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 4, 2007 - 9:39 am:
A strip of electric tape can be placed 6 ft or so back from the established fenceline, thus creating a buffer zone between horses of different sexes or temperments. Yes, it cuts into your pasture a bit, but stops all the squealing, pawing and biting that can occur over the fence. I hope your mare gets better quickly Dawn, and that the dynamics at the barn don't become miserable before the other owner either comes clean or moves on. I think you would waste your time and money in court, based on the unpredictability of horses in general. You would be unlikely to have a judge who is a horseman/woman, and all the subtleties we understand would be lost. Best wishes, Stacy
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Member:
jojo15
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 4, 2007 - 11:24 am:
so sorry to hear your horse is hurt. It's so upsetting when this kind of thing happens. Its also not very likely you will get any offering of any kind on the part of the owner of this horse. If she knows she has an aggressive horse she should do certain things to abate this kind of thing.
And if she hasn't in the past? Well she isn't going to step up now. Sounds studdy to me. I wonder if he's been checked.
But there is no law that says a person must disclose past behaviors. Its the right thing to do. But its not necessary. They asked when this horse moved in. She lied. If management does nothing to create a safer haven in the future for you or others. I'd be packing my bags. Or if I couldn't yes, I'd probably start putting up a stink. But it has to be more than this time, and it has to be episodes at this barn. If you didn't see the past problems. You can't really say what happened.
When i lived in a group setting we had rules to fend off this kind of thing. My mare is an aggressive, mean mare to certain horses. I felt it my obligation to let others know this. And over the years figured out who upset her and who didn't. I made sure new renters knew this too. and new homeowners. I was liable for any and all boards broken etc. and that was part of the rules.
Now realistically, we never could foresee it. Only when a new horse was put out next to mine. and I was more than diligent when telling people. or management. To keep an eye out. I wasn't worried for other horses, i was worried for mine. kicking boards or getting herself injured, etc.. I never wanted to take any chances of my girl getting hurt. if i put my mare out without making sure she got along it was my responsibility. And mistakes did happen. But, if my mare had bitten that needed to be stiched? yes. i would step up. would i have to by law? i don't know.
In this instance the behavior and not a physical bite, kick, trama happened. i probably would have to say yes my horse started it but your horse lost its own footing and hurt itself.
My horse was the mean one. not always but mostly. And only with certain horses. That would fight back.
I think each party should be accountable in some degree. If you have no idea a horse is like this? How would you know? you wouldn't. In the future? you know now. And if you still put your horse out you don't have much recourse. But this one time epidsode? i don't think you have much recourse here either since its the first time at this barn.
Also, I would let management handle it. Boarders getting into it with other boarders is not going to really solve anything. The management will or should, and if not you might consider moving.
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Member:
ellab
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 4, 2007 - 1:09 pm:
Can this horse have a turnout that does not directly boarder on your mares pasture? It doesn't change the fact that your mare got hurt, but as you say - she will be o.k. The most important thing is to have the two separated so someone doesn't get hurt again.
EllaB 
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Member:
boomer
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 4, 2007 - 5:01 pm:
These things happen, it's just a down side to boarding...
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Member:
dr3ssag3
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 4, 2007 - 7:53 pm:
As I mentioned before, I recognize that there are inherent risks associated with boarding horses. I've managed a boarding facility and realize what all that entails. That said, I am a FIRM believer that it is the owner's moral and legal obligation to notify barn management of any stable vices said horse has prior to entering the boarding agreement. She is fully aware that her horse has a history of aggressive behavior but FAILED to notify barn management. This in my opinion is an act of negligence.
Had the barn management known that the horse had a prior history with mares he would NOT have been turned out with mares nearby. Since the incident has occured the gelding has been turned out with no mares in sight, and is exhibiting no other problems. I witnessed the incident and saw this gelding attacking Contessa's pasture mate through the fence. I did not see him bite Contessa in this manner, but both mares were in such a frenzy they were frothy when we were finally able to catch them. This gelding was also charging into the fence, and there was a very clear danger of him bursting through to be in the paddock with the mares.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in other areas of animal legislation, the owner of an animal that has a history of prior bad acts is considered legally responsible if said animal causes bodily harm to another animal or human. Why should equine law be any different?
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Member:
jojo15
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 4, 2007 - 8:33 pm:
prior bad acts? usually its one time only and the animal gets put down. usually its a dog. most likley its a predator type of animal. Horses aren't predators. Now a scenario where the horse gets out and runs down the road, hitting a vehicle and killing people? Then you sure are liable.
Most livestock laws must prove that your business suffered from the loss to recoup any expenses. this situation would not apply.
I'm sure a google search (or even here) will pull up court cases against horses to humans. but i doubt you will find any with horses to horses...most importantly its what your state says about this. have you looked up Liability and horses in your state?
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 4, 2007 - 8:34 pm:
Well, to put the dog thing in context, if my dog was across a fence from your dog, and barked so loud it caused YOUR dog to bite itself, you would have trouble in court blaming me for negligence.
No argument the woman should have 'fessed up she had a trouble-maker. But if her horse never touched yours, it's hard to argue that he is solely at fault for her injuries.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Oct 5, 2007 - 8:03 am:
If a stallion attacked another gelding, or stallion, I could see that being a problem. But an ornery horse causing another horse to run around and fall down? A thunderstorm or gun shot could scare a horse and cause them to fall down, or run into/through something to get hurt. Who do you blame then? I agree his behavior should have been pointed out, but it wasn't.
Sounds like it's just part of having horses.
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Member:
24carrot
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Posted on Friday, Oct 5, 2007 - 1:08 pm:
I, too, am sorry your mare was hurt, but you seriously need to STOP looking for someone to blame. Maybe you should build your own barn and not let anyone else on the property (inform them that you'll look to sue if one of your animals gets hurt).
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 5, 2007 - 3:21 pm:
I had a pregnant mare I had to put down once due to the property owners stupidity. I chalked it up to experience and had a friendly chat with them about what went wrong. Then I moved the horses somewhere else. I have rented many a pasture thru the years and accidents do happen. My friend had to put her horse down because, MY mare ran her thru a gate. I felt horrible. I am still Very good friends with this person. After owning horses for 30 ought years you learn crap happens and hopefully you learn something from the experience.
I have had so many accidents with horses. When putting these animals next to each other or in with each other...owies occur just a fact of horse ownership. I would never consider sueing someone unless it was pure out and out malice.
Many people have asked if they could pasture board their horses here and that is the one reason I WON'T...fear of getting sued.
This type of situation is what puts people off from renting horse people property around here.
In turn it is making it harder and harder for people to find places for their horses if they don't own their own property.
You must realise that some horse owners just don't understand and you should try to help educate them, it would help way more than sueing.
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Member:
dr3ssag3
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 7, 2007 - 4:55 am:
I must confess I didn't see this conversation becoming so provocative.
Before I become the next Horse Advice pariah, let me say that suing was never my intent nor would it be. I'm definitely not one for frivolous lawsuits, so don't misread my initial post. I began this discussion because, quite frankly, I'm not nearly as educated about equine law as I'd like to be, and am curious to hear what other people have experienced. I recognize that this is far more a moral quandary than a legal one; apparently I blurred the lines and I apologize.
That said, I too might have a more incredulous attitude had I not witnessed the incident. The mares were grazing peacefully until this horse was turned out. He almost immediately charged the fence and I ran to get help catching the mares the moment I saw them begin to run like mad. As I say I did not see him bite Contessa, but he did bite the other mare. I did, however, see my horse rear up and come crashing down. It was terrifying, to say the least. I have since come to find out that this same gelding had broken through his stall guard as my mare was being led past only a day or so prior to this incident (another matter entirely, but perhaps it contributes to her behavior as well).
As a complete aside, the sociologist in me finds it interesting that this is the only venue where I've encountered what I can only think to describe as a vehement "horses will be horses" retort. Everyone else I've spoken to (including the owner of the barn) seems to agree that this boarder was in the wrong and should help pay my vet bills, at the very least. Will I even ask for it? No. Would it be wonderful if she volunteered it as an act of goodwill? Absolutely. Will I hold my breath? I think not.
I realize that horses, while domesticated, are still animals and are thus ultimately unpredictable in nature. I suppose I've been extremely fortunate to have boarded in barns that strive to provide as controlled an environment as possible, so that injures like this are extremely rare. As I said I've had this horse for 9 years without anything like this happening. Still, I'm stuck with nearly $700 in vet bills for this incident, and after spending thousands over the summer for I-RAP and diagnostic testing of her "mystery mass," I've hit that final straw.
In terms of "educating" this woman, well, one can try. I personally don't think a person like this will ever really "get it"...much like the woman Elizabeth mentioned above she has convinced herself that her horse is an angel. She has been put on notice with barn management, and will be sent packing should she or her horse cause any more stir. The owner of the barn has been extremely supportive, which I appreciate greatly, and has implemented changes that will hopefully prevent anything like this from happening again.
And as for me needing someone to blame? It's not so much that as a general need for people to be held accountable for their actions. I so strongly believe that as caretakers of these magnificent animals, we are obligated to ensure their safety and the safety of those around them, human and animal alike, (as much as humanly possible, at any rate). Call me an idealist, but I also think it's possible to know your horse well enough to be able to accurately predict his/her response to certain situations, and if you fail to take preventative measures and injuries arise, you should be held accountable. How does that fly in the "real world?" Not so much.
I guess what it all boils down to is this: I am sick of horse owners that fail to "err on the side of caution," because it seems to be everyone else that gets hurt.
Thank you for allowing me to vent.
Dawn
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Member:
dsibley
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 7, 2007 - 8:28 am:
I don't think anyone was suggesting that you are overly litigous or want to cast undue blame. Liability issues are very much at the forefront these days. I recently retired from the claims department of a large insurance company, so I have seen a lot of crazy claims!
You mentioned in your initial post that the gelding had broken thru his stall guard prior to this incident. As owner of a boarding stable, I would have used that incident as a caution against placing the aggressive gelding next to other horses that might 'set him off'. I do agree that some of the injuries were caused by your mare's reaction, but absent the stimulus, there would have been no reaction.
That said, I think everyone is pretty much on the same page here. Horses are unpredictable, reactionary, and take flight with little provocation. Back to the stable owner. My job is to try to minimize fights, and to protect all animals in my care. Yes, mistakes are made, but putting strange or aggressive horses next to others is not a good idea. Bad judgement? Absolutely. Negligence? No way.
The owner of the animal had, in my opinion, an obligation to report prior episodes, no matter who was at 'fault'. I was denied board in one facility when I reported that a gelding I wanted to buy had mounted mares.
So...bottom line...live and learn. Sometimes you have to be proactive. Talk to the stable owner, voice your concerns. If there is no suitable alternative, look for another place to take your animal. Safety should come first at all costs.
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Member:
ilona
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 7, 2007 - 12:52 pm:
I agree with Stacy regarding the electric fence, even at your expense its worth the small expense. (relative to bad barn atmosphere and potential vet bills).
I too have a gelding that can be aggressive with mares...nothing like the guy you have who charges. I believe it is my responsibility to make known his disposition. I keep him in a corral alone where he frankly is much happier. This is on my own property.
There is a difference between ethics and legal liability. It seems to me that the ethics of full disclosure were not followed.
That said, I have always found it better to be pro-active with solutions than passive with blame.
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Member:
dr3ssag3
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 7, 2007 - 2:04 pm:
What can I say, I was a literature major and tend to approach writing very cerebrally...the nuances of subtext and tone found in a couple of posts jump out and smack of condescension and condemnation. Not that I genuinely care what some random person on the internet thinks of me...if anything I find it amusing, but, as I'm sure one can surmise if closely reading my posts, I strive for clarity (not always successfully) and automatically elaborate if I feel my writing is misinterpreted. But enough about me.
The revelation of the stall guard incident came after speaking to one of the handlers responsible for turnout. The management was unaware and has since revoked all use of stall guards (something I've petitioned for since a new group of boarders arrived that want them used with doors open all day). The employee in question has also been reprimanded and instructed to report such incidents if and when they arise.
By and large my barn has been good about being proactive. The gelding's owner is new to the facility, and apparently has a habit of "barn hopping" (huge surprise there *sarcasm*). Barn management should now be requesting references for boarder applications, and is, at the very least, contacting the most recent barn to inquire as to the reason for departure. Are these measures fool proof? Ultimately, nothing ever is, but if it has the ability to help, great.
As for me learning a lesson from all this? As far as disclosure goes, I learned that lesson a long time ago, and strive to be a responsible horse owner. The purpose of this discussion, apart from venting my frustration, was more to glean a better understanding of equine liability as it relates to negligence; what qualifies as negligence, etc.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 7, 2007 - 7:36 pm:
Posting has been turned off on this page, I think y'all know why.
DrO
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