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  Discussion on Soundness Guarantee for sale horse
Author Message
New Member:
Chicco

Posted on Monday, Oct 18, 2004 - 1:54 pm:

I wonder if you can help me. I just sold my horse and will get paid for the mare as soon as the buyer receives a 6 month soundness guarantee. The 7 year old palomino mare was never lame and is in great health. She had a good life with us and was not used very hard. She now sold to a yound lady who will be jumping and showing her. The horse sold for a relatively low price because we are moving and have too many horses. The buyer did not want to go through a vet exam to save money. It the requested 6 month soundness guarantee unreasonable or fair. Please advise me what I should do. Thanks
Member:
Green007

Posted on Monday, Oct 18, 2004 - 2:38 pm:

I would run as fast and far as I could from such an arrangement. I have sent perfectly sound, well trained horses out on trial for as little as one week and had them come back dead lame and stopping at jumps after being overridden and jumped beyond their abilities by every lesson kid in the barn. And this was a training stable!

If I were you, I would agree to the terms in exchange for a 10%-30% non-refundable deposit, which would represent the fair market value of a lease. I would also expect the buyers to insure the horse. Too many things could go wrong - it sounds like you are taking all of the financial risk, and they are getting a free lease for 6 months.

Be careful!
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, Oct 18, 2004 - 5:11 pm:

Well, Kristina,

There's not a single horse on this planet whose soundess can be guaranteed for six months, even if it is stalled in an equine hospital.
I'd take Debbie's advice. Run !

Christos
Member:
Dres

Posted on Monday, Oct 18, 2004 - 8:58 pm:

HOLY COW... you buy a car and the minute you take if off the lot ,they don't buy it back for the same price...

you are being too nice.. don't do it...

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted the good ones!


Ann
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 - 1:11 am:

Ditto to what everyone else has said!! RUN!!!
Member:
Lindalar

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 - 2:23 pm:

Kristina, Your buyers request is unreasonable. If they are worried about soundness they need to buy insurance for their purchase. Truely worried buyers pay for a per-purchase exam. I would not offer them any deals at this stage. I too have sent ponies out on trial only to get them back with swollen knees and splints from nasty handling and poor care. I only offer trial when the pony stays in my barn. I do gaurentee soundness at time of sale using a vet of their choice for the lamness exam. I might even pay for a portion of the test but only as part of the sales agreement.
Member:
Tonijo

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 21, 2006 - 11:22 am:

I have an opportunity to buy a well bred mare that is at a very high price but the owner is willing to take a significant amount less due to health issues. I did a pre purchase exam and the findings showed arthritic changes already in the hock but she is such a young horse and not in any pain. I imformed the owner and changed my mind on the sale. She appeared to be uncomfortable and unsure of the findings but i had two vets read the reports and they were accurate. The seller called me back and said she would guarantee the mare and if any soundness issues were to show up down the road and then I could have a few options such as : give me a breeding for the mare or pick another sale horse of hers or get my money back less 5thousand dollars and keep her, just to name a few. I would legally have something written up but I want feedback as to whether or not this contract will hold its validity if its legal and is it worth the shot. Any feedback would be great! Currently even though these changes show up in her xrays, she is not lame.
thanks
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 21, 2006 - 1:09 pm:

Toni,

I wouldn't take the chance. Even with a written contract, I suspect it would be hard to enforce to your satisfaction. A breeding to which stallion? Any other sale horse of any price?

What is appearing to be arthritic changes in a young horse may in fact be a genetic defect in which case why you might want to think long and hard about breeding her.

If you're willing and able to assume the risk, proceed with caution.

Good Luck!
Member:
Nightwin

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 21, 2006 - 1:11 pm:

Altho you are asking advice re a contract, I want to offer my current situation which may give you pause. Four mos. ago, at the enthusiastic encouragement of a trainer at my boarding facility, I purchased a big 3-yo quarter horse for training and resale who had had xrays of his front legs and all checked out. The trainer assured me that he was a great mover and loved to jump. As soon as he arrived it was apparent that something was wrong, and sure enough xrays of his hocks showed arthritic changes and fusion of the distal hock joint already in process. He is now getting monthly injections of Legends, and if that doesn't keep him comfortable, next is hock injections. I am told it may take a year or more before we will know if (1) the hocks have fused, and (2)if fused, that that will render him painfree. Right now I have a lovable, big, and expensive horse who can only be walked. Remember, he was supposedly perfect (according to the trainer) until he was transported to my farm 2 weeks later. I personally would walk away from this mare unless you have lots of money to burn and the time to see what happens with her hocks.
Member:
Canter

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 21, 2006 - 8:36 pm:

Toni,
How old is the horse? I posted a similar question 3 years ago after a pre-purchase exam on my mare. Well- bred horse, lovely mover, great training, completely sound...I really wanted this horse, but the xrays showed very mild changes. The vet said it wasn't unusual at her age (13 at the time) and with the work she had been doing (trained to 4th level dressage) to see changes and that it didn't necessarily mean that she'd become unsound. I agonized over the decision but finally purchased her. She is now 16 and continues to be 100% sound (knock on wood!!!). For me, it was the right choice to make...but I cannot say it is the right choice for you. Is this a very young horse with major changes to the joints? What will be your plans for the horse? Can you afford some maintinance like Cosequin? These are all questions you will have to consider before making your decision. If you REALLY like this horse, consider also a second opinion on the xrays.

I wish you luck. I know it can be a very difficult decision to make.
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 8:32 am:

It seems the lady selling this horse, will say anything to make a sale. she needs the money now... and is willing to gamble the horse over it later. Question is ARE YOU? And personally once the horse is in your care, who's to say you aren' t to blame for any future lameness issues. That is what i would argue if a horse left my property Sound, but then is lame.... And how are you going to find this seller 6, 10months, or 2 years down the road... This is a buyer beware moment to the nth degree.
Member:
Tonijo

Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 8:37 am:

Fran
The mare is 4yo and its a significant change in the hock and my vet looked at the xrays and she says that it looks like its ready to fuse but currently the horse shows no sign of pain. My vet did not recommend making such a big purchase. But I thought I would hear from people oout here and similiar experiences. Thank you all for your support out here.
Toni
Member:
Tonijo

Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 9:01 am:

If anymore people would like to share info I would love to hear from you. Im strongly leaning to the "change of heart" side. I am very afraid of the unknown which means I now have to give the awful rejection call.
thanks everyone!
Toni
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 10:24 am:

Toni,
There are too many horses out there that have no problems to start out with. I would be very concerned about these kind of changes in a horse so young. Its not the same thing as seeing some expected wear and tear on an aged horse.

If things go sour and you want to enforce the contract you may be looking at having to get a lawyer, go to court etc. And you end up with a horse you can't ride.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 11:30 am:

I have read that rarely congenitally fused distal intratarsal joints and maybe tarso-metatarsal joints occur, with this horse's history of no lameness, I wonder if this is what your vets are seeing? In either case I agree with the above: if you cannot find a price that you can live with you should not buy this horse. Fancy contracts are a recipe for headaches.
DrO
Member:
Canter

Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 1:09 pm:

After hearing that the horse is only 4, I would have to agree with everyone else...walk away. There are plenty of great horses out there. With patience, you will find one.
Member:
Tonijo

Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 3:01 pm:

Dr. O I will pull up my report and write what the vet has said about the particulars and I would like you to respond w/ your opinion after I post the particulars. thanks for the input.
Toni
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 5:09 pm:

In my latest round of diagnostic imaging with my horse, now 14, radiographs showed his right hock, basically his remaining "good" leg was "nearly" fused. The examining vet mentioned that it almost appeared to be a congenital condition. I then remembered that when he was x-rayed as a 7 year old, the same "nearly" fused comment was made at that time.
Member:
Tonijo

Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 9:34 pm:

Chris are you saying that the same leg back when he was 7 and had xrays looked the same by 14 in the new xrays? Basically, there was no change in that particular leg? So is that what youre saying? Again thanks for all your info.
Toni
Member:
Tonijo

Posted on Thursday, Jun 22, 2006 - 9:49 pm:

Dr. O
Here are the results from the prepurchase exam:
.flexion tests in hind had no gait abnormality both on a lunge line and jogged in a strait line.
.Both right/left distal foreleg showed no apparent abnormality observed.
.Both rt/left tarsal region and the left no apparent abnormality however the right tarsal region was as follows:
.lateral view- The anterior-distal surface of the central tarsal bone and the anterior-proximal surface of the third tarsal bone exhibited decreased density of bone with a min. loss of cartilage and proliferation of bone on the anterior surface.
.Ant-Post-Lat.-Med View- The central tarsal and third tarsal bone exhibited a similiar loss of bone density as observed on the lateral view.
.Anterior-Posterior-View- Minimal evidence of loss of bone density on central tarsal and third tarsal bone.

Hows that for a mouthful? Well I would love to hear your opinion and possibly past experience w/ such a prognosis both positive or negative that I would encounter down the road.
Thank you again for your medical expertise.
Toni
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 9:36 am:

Interesting but not really helpful, such changes are seen in many sound horses. You know 70% of the horses that were rejected because of nonlameness abnormalities on a prepurchase went on to perform adequately at the intended use. Interesting the number was the same, 70%, for those who passed the prepurchase. I am not sure the described radiographic abnormalities, significantly worsens the prognosis considering the horse has always been sound (be sure to double check that with the horses regular veterianarian). But I am certain if this represents a investment that you cannot afford to take a 30% chance you might lose, you should pass it up.
DrO
Member:
Erika

Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 4:24 pm:

Toni, this thread interested me because of the discussion about the heartbreak of selling a horse in another current thread.

I have a friend who bought a nice two year old Quarterhorse that had arthritic hocks upon prepurchase exam. My friend was really crazy about this colt, though and bought him anyway, hoping for the best. Ten years later, the horse is still sound.

Nobody can predict the future and horses are tough to judge as per Dr. O's percentages above.

Maybe the seller sees a good home for this horse with you and is willing to compromise to see that the horse goes to a good person. Take a peek at the thread "do wild horses founder" and see what all are saying about the difficulty of selling a nice horse to just anyone. It may give you some thought.

I am not telling you to buy the horse. Just trying to give you some things to consider when making your decision.
Member:
Vrich

Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 10:37 pm:

Erika - I love your thoughts. I always tend toward trusting your gut. (That's how I've ended up with 8-wonderful-horses!) I could never sell a horse. It's just not in me. The more I read, the more I know it!
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 8:50 am:

Sorry the delay in replying.

Yes, Toni, my horse's hock looked the same on x-rays when he was 7 and again at 14. Note also that this was his "good" rear leg. I suspect that this is due to the relative low motion of the particular joint that appeared to be "fused".

Chris
New Member:
cajintex

Posted on Thursday, Jun 12, 2008 - 10:10 am:

Hi,
I am in a situation similar to these. I ended up with too many horses on my land. During the DrOught season which seems to be most of the year here, I have to buy supplements. This is getting way too costly for me and it's not what I bargained for. I am selling a horse that is dead broke. She is a really nice looking horse. I am only asking $1000.00 for her. A lady came and looked at her on the weekend. She wanted to come in the middle of the day with 90 something degrees outside, which I did not care for, but let her come over anyway. She wanted my daughter to ride this horse, which my daughter did. My daughter had the horse do everything the woman asked with no problem. The woman wanted to ride the horse, which I really didn't care for, because I didn't want to take a chance on her getting hurt, and it was really hot. The woman rode the horse and the mare did everything the woman asked of her. Then she asked if this boy could ride her, he was 13 and has ridden before. I didn't really care for this but let him ride. The woman then wanted to take her out of the roundpen and into the pasture, which I wasn't sure about, as I told the woman the horse hadn't been ridden in several months. She took the horse and the horse behaved perfectly. There were kids around, there was a stallion in the pasture beside her, and she behaved perfectly. After all that, the woman has to wait for her friend that is truly the person that wants the horse, and showed her how the horse acted. The woman while asking questions said she wanted a 30 day guarantee on the horse after she is bought and paid for. They keep insisting on this guarantee, but I don't trust this because I don't know what will happen in 30 days so she can take the horse and make sure she doesn't have any health issues, or that she don't DrOp dead in a week for any reason. I told her no and that I talked to several breeders about that request and they said no don't do it. She has called me twice now and said she wants the horse but cannot put that kind of money on anything without having a the 30 day guarantee. I am afraid I will not be selling this horse anytime soon if I have to give someone a guarantee and let them take the horse for 30 days.
Member:
hpyhaulr

Posted on Thursday, Jun 12, 2008 - 10:40 am:

It sounds like you have already gone against your better judgement several times in this post and gotten a good outcome. SO how many times do you think you can dip into that well?
I understand we all jump through hoops to find a good home for our horses in this challenging market, BUT until Murphy's Law is repealed, I would draw the line in the sand right here. To guarantee a situation where you have ZERO control is absurd, and just bad business practice. I need to believe a more reasonable buyer is out there. Find him/her. To capitulate now buys you 30 days of angst, possibly more if my imaginations' worst case scenarios are realized. I would neither expect nor extend such a promise.
Member:
stevens

Posted on Thursday, Jun 12, 2008 - 1:39 pm:

Agree with Cyndy's comments. I have to smile about the "that kind of money" statement, the mare sounds like a bargain to me unless she's 100 years old. I guess it's all relative. Either way, the big ongoing horse expense is board/feed/care not the purchase price.

If you don't want to wait for a more reasonable buyer, and are anxious to move this mare on you may want to consider DrOpping the price (maybe $100 which would be 10%).

I would not, under any circumstance give a 30 day guarantee. You might suggest the lady invest in a vet check if she's that concerned.
Member:
dres

Posted on Thursday, Jun 12, 2008 - 1:53 pm:

There are NO GUARANTEES IN LIFE ever... one never knows what one might step on tomorrow.. good grief... enough hoop jumping... I like Chris's idea a 10% price cut alowing her to have a vet check..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
stumc861

Posted on Thursday, Jun 12, 2008 - 2:30 pm:

If someone can't afford a prepurchase exam or afford to pay $1000 for a dead broke mare, how will she afford to feed/trim/vaccinate/worm that horse? Can she afford appropriate stabling/pasture? I would definitely NOT make the 30 day guarantee; although, if her concern is that the horse won't work out well, you could devise a contract that 1)acknowledged that the mare was not injured or lame in any way when the person accepted her; 2) the buyer will provide all necessary care and assume all risk of illness or injury to the mare; 3) seller will agree to accept a return within 2 weeks, provided the mare is in the same condition as when she left (take pictures!); 4) seller will return the purchase price less a percentage for use of the horse during the 2 week period, if horse is returned. Personally, I would walk away from this buyer and find someone who appreciates finding a sound, willing, kind, broke horse that children can ride!
New Member:
cajintex

Posted on Thursday, Jun 12, 2008 - 2:44 pm:

The mare is only 13 years old. She had a buttermilk buckskin foal that I had gelded and he is of the same personality as her. He will be a dream to break. I sold him to a friend down the road for only $600.00. He is three years old. I just wanted him close so I could still see him and watch him grow and all.
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