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  Discussion on Consignment issue - need advice quickly!!
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Member:
Erinport

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 14, 2004 - 1:15 pm:

I recently bought a Spotted Saddle Horse gelding from a barn in Bells, Tennessee. My husband and I went there, and told the owner that we were looking for a BEGINNER HORSE, ONE THAT WOULD BE SAFE AND TAKE CARE OF US. She brought out two or three horses for us to try. One of them was a spotted gelding. We rode two horses for a while, and decided to take the spotted gelding. They assured us that he would be a good match for us, and that he had great ground manners. Upon getting him home, we put him in his own small paddock for a few weeks before turning him out with the other horses (three mares). In the third week, we turned him out with the mares. He seemed to be fine. That weekend, I rode him, and he was very jumpy and nervous, to the point that I decided to get off him completely and put him away. I thought he was that way because it was windy. I called the seller, and voiced my concerns, and she told me that there would be no returns or trades, because he was a "consignment horse", and not hers. Never once, when we were trying him out and considering to buy him, or even when money changed hands, did she disclose to us that he was a consignment horse. I sent the horse to a trainer for two weeks, where he did quite well. There were no mares within a couple hundred yards of him. When we got him home, we had no choice but to turn him out with the girls again, as his pasture fence was not complete. My mom got on him to ride a couple weekends ago, and I got out our other new gelding. As soon as Mom got on him, he ran off with her, dumped her in the woods (causing some major injuries and a hospital stay), and ran straight for the mare pasture. Once he was there, he was cool as a cucumber. We caught him, put him back in the new pasture (the fence was now finished), and he proceeded to run the fence line in a frenzy to get to the mares, cutting himself up on wire. He was absolutely out of control.

I called the seller and told her what happened, told her that he was uncontrollably studdy, and that I really would like for her to take the horse back. She was adamant that the horse was not her responsibility, nor was it ever her responsibility to represent him honestly in the first place.

When I went back and looked at the horse's papers, he was indeed registered with the SSH registry under her name. All of his medical, vet and farrier papers listed her as the owner. The only document I found anything else on was the Coggins paper, which had a gentleman's name listed as owner, with her stable's name and info stamped over the previous owner's name. The Coggins papers were from February, which is when she said he came to her farm. She swears she can show me a consignment agreement from when she got the horse.

My question is this: Is she legally responsible for misrepresenting the horse to us as one that would be safe for beginners? Is she legally considered the owner, because her name is on all the papers, including the horse's registration? Should she have disclosed to us at the time of sale that she was not the true owner of the animal and was acting as selling agent for the true owner?

I don't want to sue the pants off the lady, although my mom probably thinks I should. All I want is for her to right a wrong. I feel she misrepresented the animal, someone got (badly) hurt as a result of that misrepresentation, and I want her to refund my money and take him back. She stands to make even more money off the horse by selling him again. I'm not sure why she's so reluctant to deal with me.

I'm afraid I don't know how to proceed at this point. She's offered to sell him for me as a consignment horse once again, and not charge me a consignment fee. But I would have to pay a "boarding and training fee" to keep him at her place while he's listed for sale. My dad doesn't want any prospective buyers to ride him on our farm, in case he pulls the same trick on them. My dad would then stand to get sued if someone got hurt. So if I sell him, I have to send him to her place. I feel okay about her offer to sell him for no consignment fee. My only problem is that on the consignment agreement, it says that I would be completely responsible for representing the animal, and I would be 100% liable for misstatements. How can I be liable if she's the one making the statements?! She won't take that part out of the contract.

I really need some advice here. I don't want to incur the cost of sueing the woman, and really don't have the desire to, anyway. I have no wish to hurt her or her business. This is an unfortunate occurence that came about as a result of her misrepresenting the animal's temperament, and misrepresenting the ownership of the animal. I just want her to take him back and give me my money back, so I can go and find a horse that's more suitable. I don't feel I should have to sign a paper saying I'm responsible for what happens with him in his next home.

Please help! If anyone has had a similar experience, or knows anything about equine law, I'd love some advice!

Thanks.
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 14, 2004 - 1:40 pm:

Wow... what is her name... A good way to scare the beejusus outa her is threaten "her good name"... and her reputation.

The "gentleman" obviously signed the horse over to her to sell if all paperwork is in her name. She is legally liable.

and she is pulling you along with her " i will sell him for you"....scenario.

I can't say what you need to do next, but i would definetely push her to reconsider or i would take her to court. How many times did you ride the horse prior to buying? did you have a vet check? Did any experienced horse people advise you? Was it possible the horse was drugged when you rode him? Maybe see if the vet can determine anything residual in him, where she drugged the horse to make him saleable and ridable. Because it seems she might not have been honest in any regard during this sale.

So sorry to hear about this. Its so frightening and frustrating you just can't trust anyone anymore.....

sad,
jojo

Member:
Erinport

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 14, 2004 - 3:02 pm:

JoJo-

Thanks for the kind words. I don't want to put her name or the name of her stable in print until we have this worked out. I have no desire to smear her name if in the end she's willing to right the wrong. She has some very nice horses there, and I'm sure she has many satisfied customers out there. But this is a matter of business practice, not quality of stock.

I'm of the same belief you are - if her name is on the papers, it was her responsibility to represent the horse properly, or to at least buy him back because of what's happened. We're still in the process of working this out. I'd like for her to buy him back at cost, or to sell him for me, but not as long as the consignment contract says I'M responsible for misstatements. It was her mistake to begin with.

Member:
Canter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 14, 2004 - 3:15 pm:

Erin,
I suggest you speak to a lawyer-even if you have no intent to sue. Laws vary from state to state so it's difficult to give advice that would be legal in your state. Sometimes having a lawyer simply contact the person is enough to scare them into doing the right thing, without having it go much further.

Best of luck.
Fran
Member:
Erinport

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 14, 2004 - 4:52 pm:

JoJo-

Forgot to answer some of your questions. I rode the horse on a short trail ride at the seller's place, with my husband on one other gelding, and the seller's stable guy riding a mare. We had no problems. Actually, the gelding my husband was on spooked, which is why we decided on the spotted one instead. We'd driven all over Tennessee looking for a nice gaited horse that weekend. All we saw was crap (pardon the expression), and this is the first horse we saw that didn't appear to have been padded up or shown big lick at some point in his life. On the trail, he was steady. And he was steady again on the trail for me the first time we rode him at home. But remember, he still had not met the mares at that point.

Yes, I had a vet check, but used her vet. Big mistake on my part. The fact is, she's in Tennessee and I'm in Missouri. I wouldn't have known where to find a good vet down there, so I took her on her word, and let her arrange the vet check. I have papers saying he was healthy and sound. Did she drug him? Who knows? I didn't have them do blood work. He seemed alert, penis was not hanging out of its sheath, eyes were bright and open. I've seen sedated animals, horses included, and I really don't THINK he was sedated. She knew we were coming to look at horses, but we hadn't mentioned specific horses. To give her the benefit of the doubt, I really don't think she's the type to sedate a horse in order to sell it.

The fact is, we asked her to pull out horses that she thought would be suited to us, and to our level of riding and experience. This is one of the horses that she pulled out. We didn't go down the barn row and point at the pretty ones and say, "ooh, that one looks good." She pulled this horse out. And she never said he was a consignment horse. She said she'd gotten him in February of this year, which led me to believe he belonged to her. She also breeds SSH's in addition to buying/selling and consignment, so it was anyone's guess as to how she came to have this horse on her property. She never specifically told us that he was being sold consignment, or that she was acting as the seller's agent. That's where part of my beef is. Also, HER NAME is on all the papers. When I questioned her about that, she said that she offered to register the horse as SSH because it would be cheaper for her to do it than for the "seller" to do it, because she was already a member of the association. But all of the farrier and vet papers have HER NAME on them as well. In addition to that, she stamped her name over the "seller's" name on the Coggins paper. She says she can produce a consignment agreement signed by both her and the "seller". So what? Even if she can, does that stand up in light of the fact that the horse is registered in her name? I never asked her to buy or consign an unregistered/grade horse. It was her decision to do that, and I feel that I'm paying the consequences. It's very frustrating, because my husband and I are just getting into horses, and one of our first experiences is this! It leaves a bad taste in your mouth about the horse world. I know better than to let that taint my opinion of horse people in general, but my husband isn't all that thrilled at our experiences thus far.

I'm not asking for her to pay me the world in retribution. But I feel that I'm justified in asking her to refund my money and take the horse back. I'm willing to eat the expenses of transport back to her barn, the two weeks' training I put on him, and the $50 for resetting his shoes. I don't think a basic refund of what I paid for him is unreasonable.}
Member:
Chrism

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 14, 2004 - 6:36 pm:

Did you sign a sales agreement? What did it say? As is? No return?

I think you have several choices:

1) work with your local trainer to make the horse more rideable and develop your own riding skills - this could take a number of months before you are confident of the horse and would expect him to behave at home.

2) work with your local trainer to train and sell him

3) send him back to the lady in TN as a sale horse. I am not fond of this idea as it is more sunk money in her pockets and she isn't working with you

4) consult an attorney to determine what her contractual responsibilities are. perhaps a letter on legal letter head would give her pause and to avoid legal fees she'd make amends

5) work with an equine arbitration group to settle the dispute.

How old is the horse? What amount of training has he had? If you put the other gelding out with him in the pasture, is he quiet or does he still try to get to the mares?

Good luck with this, there isn't an easy solution from my vantage point.
Member:
Jjet

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 14, 2004 - 9:49 pm:

Erin: Have you gotten in touch with the person she refers to as the true owner? That person may be able to help you, if there really is another party involved, as she claims. You could ask them to show you whatever documentation they have regarding the potential sale of the horse; whether it is truly a consignment situation, whether she is bound to tell you the truth about the horse (how could it be any other way?), or just exactly what the owners' resposibilities are.

It certainly appears that reason is on your side, you don't seem to want to rile her; she seems to see that and is taking advantage of it. The conditions you have requested for his return seem very reasonable.

First I would contact the previous owner, if that doesn't help then have an attorney send her a letter. You may find that the previous owner is liable. If so, then send him a letter.

It's fine to try to be reasonably accomodating but don't let her run over you just because you're relatively new horse owners.

Best of luck in such an aggravating situation!

Jan
Member:
Erinport

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 15, 2004 - 2:31 pm:

Well, guys, I think we've found a mutually satisfying way to settle this. The seller and I talked yesterday, and came to terms. She is going to sell the horse for me, as a consignment sale. She is NOT going to charge me a consignment fee. The horse will be kept at her place for $6 per day, to pay for feed, etc. I felt that this was fair. He has already been listed on her website, and she anticipates selling him before the holidays are over, because she's experiencing a "Christmas rush" on her trail geldings right now. She has agreed not to advertise him as a beginner horse, and to be honest about his studdiness to potential buyers. And she removed the items in the consignment contract which made me ultimately responsible for misstatements or misrepresentation.

I'd talked to the Crockett County, TN small claims court office, and she wasn't too keen on the idea of being sued. We both want this problem out of our hair, and feel that this situation will work for both of us. I'm paying her to keep him there until he's sold, but she's not making money off me again for selling him. She's charging a price for him with enough room for me to at least get back what I've got into him, including the training. She's benefitting because I won't be smearing her good name all over the internet. She's getting rid of me, nad I have the opportunity to find a new horse that's more suited to us. Honestly, I wouldn't be too hesitant about buying another horse from her in the future. It took some work, but in the end, she made amends. To me, that's good business practice.

Thank you all for your kind comments and advice. It's greatly appreciated!
Member:
Chrism

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 15, 2004 - 4:27 pm:

Let us know when he sells and if you recover your sunk costs.

Good luck!
Member:
Erinport

Posted on Monday, Jan 3, 2005 - 11:18 am:

Hello, Everyone. Boy, did this take a wrong turn! My trainer and I trailered my SSH gelding down to BJ's Spotted Saddle Horses (the seller's barn) yesterday, and things did not go well. The stable owner had her husband answer the phone and tell us that she wasn't there, and that we'd have to wait for her, even though she was expecting us. Then he told us to put Traveler in an empty stall in the barn. We did, and the conditions we found in her barn were deplorable. She had about fifteen horses in stalls, and NONE of them had food of any type. No hay, no grain, nothing. In addition, there was no bedding in any stall, and every horse was standing hock-deep in manure. Those stalls looked as if they hadn't been cleaned in weeks. And nearly all of the horses were very underweight. Uneasy with the conditions, we put Traveler in a stall in the back. Then, we waited in her driveway for an hour and a half, in the rain, and she never showed up. Finally I called again, and she answered the phone herself, and come to find out, she'd been there the whole time. She said there was no reason for her to come out there, that we'd worked everything out over the phone. But she said to leave the papers, and she'd call me when he sold! Leave the papers?! And the horse?! Yeah, right. Finally, she let us come in, and we got into yet another verbal battle. She said she claimed no responsibility for the injuries my mom sustained because of the horse, she said she never represented him as anything, and she said that all sales were final. My trainer asked her why she didn't stand behind her product, and she said that horses are animals, and they'll do what they want, and it's not her responsibility if they hurt someone. During the course of the conversation, she caught herself in several lies, contradicted herself continually, and got VERY angry. When I asked her what happened to the money I'd paid her for Traveler (since she didn't have it to refund to me, and the "seller" hadn't been paid yet either), she got really ticked and told me that it was none of my damn business. Well I can tell you one thing, it sure didn't go for feed or shavings!

My trainer and I went back, loaded Traveler back up, and went home. Now, I'm in the position of deciding whether or not to file suit against her. Does ANYONE know of any attorneys that specialize in equine law? I need to talk to one, to find out if I even have a case or not. I can take her to small claims in Crockett County, TN, and if I lose, I only lose the $95 it cost me to file a case against her. But to do that, I have to go down there in person. I live in St Louis, and it's over a 3-hour drive to get there, and it would cost me time off work. So if I can file a real suit against her, knowing I have a chance of winning, I'd rather do it that way. It would be more worth my time.

I'm so disappointed that this has all happened. All I wanted, from the very beginning, was for her to make things right. I never wanted to sue anyone or any of that. It's so frustrating that this is one our very first horse purchases, and it all turns out like this. It makes you think that the horse business in general is like this.

Anyway, I just thought I'd update all of you who were interested in this, and ask any advice you might have to offer. I really need to find an attorney to talk to, who knows about equine-related disputes. Thanks, all!
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Monday, Jan 3, 2005 - 12:43 pm:

erin,

Not all horsepeople are like this.. And i hope this isn't a turn-off. This is just a bad situation on all ends of the deal.

At this point you really should research the attorneys and find one that can help you or point you in the direction of one in her area. Suing someone is a big deal. And takes lots of time and money. and most will settle out. I know i had a problem that i wanted to sue but, then just DrOpped it after realizing, is it all worth the upset. The only problem is that it just sits in the pit of my stomach that this person "got away with it"... Not a small pill to swallow. (nothing to do with horses, just a real estate snafu). But, it still is bothering me. And probably always will.

I know NOW what i should have known then. and that is immeasurable. And won't be making that mistake again. As a matter of fact. I don't sign anything any longer unless an attorney has looked it over. And that will go for horses in the future, too.

As for your particular problem i am sorry you have to go thru this. Its a very upsetting thing. And its not just a deal. There is a poor horse involved. and you can't sell him till after you sue. why not take a month to see if you can sell him on your own? as is? to someone who can handle him? Then if this doesn't work, you have spent the month finding a lawyer and getting his take on this.

i hope you have a happy new year. and this woman will get her comeuppance. It seems she isn't a very diligent person and that will ruin her in the end.

joj
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 3, 2005 - 3:12 pm:

Erin I hate to be negative in such a situation but if you have no written contract that specifies that the horse would be suitable for your intended use plus clear evidence that there are problems the seller should have been aware of prior to the sale, I don't think you have a strong case. It is not that you cannot win a case on a verbal contract...it just is very hard and expenses are likely to be greater than the amount you recover.

If you would like to pursue this, email American Association for Horsemanship Safety at jzdawson@aol.com. They have referrals for equine lawyers when an accident is involved.
DrO
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Jan 3, 2005 - 5:27 pm:

Erin, I'd have to add my comments that law sue suits take a long time and are expensive to everyone elses. The ARE expensive....even if you win; and they take a long time to get resolved, even when you are in the right. I know of a case that was thrown out of court 3 times, yet the plantiff still had one more chance to appeal, finally after 5 years and two different judges, the case was resolved in the defendent's favor. Another year has passed, and the defendent still hasn't gotten anything in writing from the court nor any money for lawyer's fees because the court is so backed up!! So....in your case, you'd be caring for this horse for those 5 yrs., or however long it would take for a lawsuit to be settled. And, even if you won, if this woman has no money for feed and shavings, she's not going to have money to pay you. IMo you'd be much better off to try and sell the horse yourself.

It's a shame that incidents like this happen as it gives everyone in the horse business a bad name, and it puts off a "newbie" instead of making you happy and wanting to be more involved with the sport and horses.
Member:
Oscarvv

Posted on Monday, Jan 3, 2005 - 6:21 pm:

Erin,
Sorry you've had such a horrible first horse buying experience. I agree that without a written contract it would be hard to win a case against her. I wonder if this horse is buddy sour or possibly a cryptorchid. Also, a horse can be drugged without the typical signs.

I know the conditions at her barn are the least of your concern but She had about fifteen horses in stalls, and NONE of them had food of any type. No hay, no grain, nothing. In addition, there was no bedding in any stall, and every horse was standing hock-deep in manure. Those stalls looked as if they hadn't been cleaned in weeks. And nearly all of the horses were very underweight. This is terrible. Can you possibly make an anonymous call to her local humane society or notify a local horse rescue?

-B
Member:
Ladera

Posted on Monday, Jan 3, 2005 - 8:35 pm:

Erin,

I really should be getting dinner on the table but needed to add my two cents to this post.

I think Christine had some wonderful advice in regards to your choices.
I think also you are mad and are annoyed that someone took advantage of you. Everyone hates to be taken for a ride.

My first horse purchase was a disaster. I ended up with some serious issues. My first decision was could I return the animal. NOpe.
I then located a trainer who could help my with all the nasty issues I was dealing with as a novice rider. I ended upo with a pretty amazing guy.
Hopefully you didn't pay more than a four digit number.
Get mad for the day and get it out of your system then put your energy into finding a good trainer.

As for suing this is a pretty expensive alternative. YOu could take her to small claims court depending on your contract and your documentation. I bet she is thinking you would do nothing. Do you have any documentation, proof, records, pictures of her not fulling the deal? {and for those who read this post, I highly reccomend taking photos of your horses after a sale so false claims don't come back to hurt you}.

YOu have the right to be mad/ angry/ pissed off. I don't know if you should be putting your time in retribution.
Hopefully this horse has some redeemimg qualities that haven't been unearthed yet.

I do hope some good comes out of this experience.
Good Luck
Jeanne
Member:
Erinport

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 4, 2005 - 11:13 am:

Hi Guys-

Thanks for all of your comments and advice. My trainer and I have been talking, and I've decided not to file suit, for several reasons. For one thing, if she can't afford to clean her stalls or feed her stock, she can't afford to go to court and argue this out. I'd rather her spend her money on her horses, and not on me. That's not to say I'm not pissed about all this, but I'll take my lumps and learn my lesson.

This whole thing is kind of wierd. I got ahold of the name of the guy who had Traveler before he went to BJ's, and gave him a call last night. He confirmed that he'd consigned Traveler through BJ's, and that he'd sent him there last February. He was flabergasted to find out that we'd bought him in October, as he's been calling them to see what's going on, and they're not returning his calls. They've not paid him any of his money, either. I told him what I paid for Traveler and wished him luck. I sincerely doubt he'll ever see his money for the sale of the horse. I also talked to him to find out more about Traveler. He said he'd NEVER put a beginner on that horse, as he's way too hot. Yep, we figured that one out! He also said he's very dominant in a mixed herd situation, and tends toward studdiness at times. Yep, we got that one, too. At least this guy was honest! And I don't hold him responsible for the way Barbara represented the horse. We DrOve up her driveway in a Lexus, we were first time horse buyers, and she saw "sucker" written all over us. And we fell for it, hook, line, and sinker. We've learned our lesson.

If she'd told us he was consignment right then and there, I definitely would have called the seller, and found out more about the horse. It aggravates me that she never gave me the chance to do that. In that respect, she was dishonest. Secondly, the seller said that he was purebred TWH, but had never been registered. He even gave me some of the names in his pedigree. He said because he was a gelding, and just for riding, he didn't see the need to spend the money and register him. Well, when he got to BJ's, she registere the horse as a Spotted Saddle Horse with the SSHBEA in HER name. The seller knew nothing about it. To me, that's tantamount to horse theft. Too bad they don't hang people for that anymore.

Upon reflection, and consideration of the various bits of advice I've gotten, I've decided to let this go. I'll chalk it up to a lack of experience on my part, and learn from it. I will market Traveler and try to get back for him what I can, but I will represent him honestly for what he is. He's a good horse, and the seller agrees wholeheartedly with that. But we both also agree that he is in no way suitable for beginners or even advanced beginners. As for BJ's Spotted Saddle Horse Farm, I expect a dispersal sale any time now. If this is the way she's conducting business in the horse world, she won't last much longer. Word gets around, and when you make people unhappy, and do unethical things, it comes back to you tenfold. She doesn't seem to be in the best position with her business as it is now, with all her help gone, her horses not being fed, her stalls not being cleaned. You get my point. So I figure she'll get what's coming to her in good time, and I can walk away from it feeling good that I wasn't an active part of her eventual ruination.

Again, I thank everyone for their support and kind comments. If you know of anyone looking for a nice Spotted Saddle Horse, give me a shout!

Erin
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 4, 2005 - 11:31 am:

I think you've made a wise decission. I feel sorry for the horses left in this "farms" care, and hope they make out as well as Traveler, where someone is at least kind enough to try and find the right owner for them.

Traveler, btw, has a very famous name. That was the name of Gen. Robert E. Lee's horse during the Civil War. Lee rode him every day of the war, and afterwards until he was too ill to ride anymore - just a few days before he died. There is a very good book about the war written as if the Traveler was telling the tale to the barn cat. I forget the name of it just now, but it would be easy to find if you are interested in horses & history.

Good luck to you and Traveler.

Oh, and if I'm not mistaken, Lee's Traveler was a Walking Horse, also.
Member:
Chrism

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 4, 2005 - 12:20 pm:

There is an interesting book called Traveler written by the same Englishman who wrote Watership Down - Richard Adams, I believe. It worth a read to horse lovers and people interested in the Civil War. The story is told by Traveler. My dad was well read in the Civil War and felt the book was pretty durn accurate.

I am sorry you've had this problem. I would second the suggestion to file a report/complaint re horse care with the local SPCA, Humane Society or Animal Control. In fact, I would do so in writing and sign it. Just the facts: "I was going to leave a horse with XXX to be trained/sold on consignment until I saw ... I was so horrified I packed him up and left."

I would also file a formal written complaint about the misrepresentation of the horse's suitability with the State's Better Business Bureau.

I would think about jointly filing a police report with the fellow who had not been paid for his horse. That is stealing.

I'd also think about a contacting a newsmedia's consumer action person - we've several on local TV stations. Nothing like a TV cameramen and news reporter poking around to get a response.

My objective in these actions would not be financial recovery, but to hurry along the demise of their business and limit the exposure of animals to the conditions you describe.

At least you can feel good about doing the right thing by Traveler. I always figure what goes around comes around ... bad karma will catch up with these shysters someday - either in this world or the next.

Cheers.
Member:
Kari

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 4, 2005 - 7:31 pm:

Erin,

I've been following this thread with some interest as I live approx. 30 miles from Bells, Tn. I breed Qt. horses and sell only my own stock with no trades or outside consignments.
I'm also a retired attorney with approx. 18 years in the civil practice and rest as a criminal prosecutor for the State of Tennessee. Based on that I have to agree with most of the other comments made as to the possible legal proceedings against this lady. I doubt that you would have any success as the old maxim of "caveat emptor" would probably deny you any relief. I also feel that criminal prosecution would be difficult to obtain and probably would not give you any satisfaction.
All that said, please feel comfortable that I will keep this lady in mind when asked about reputable dealers in our area. I have many contacts in the area and hopefully I can steer them away from this dealer.
I would encourage you to post a letter to the BBB in Crockett Ct. as it may also alert others as to her business dealings.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 5, 2005 - 5:51 am:

Ditto on ST's BBB suggestion and a good reminder of an important step everyone should take when dealing with folks you do not know well.
DrO
Member:
Erinport

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 5, 2005 - 10:07 am:

ST, I agree with you. I looked into all sorts of legal websites pertaining to equine law, and I probably dont' stand much chance of getting anything out of this. Yes, I can drag her through court, but at what expense to myself? And I'd have to keep Traveler the entire time, and I'd much rather just sell him now and move on with things.

If anyone has a case against her, it's the actual seller. She took the horse from him on consignment, registered it in HER name, sold the horse, didn't tell him, avoided his calls, and never gave him his money. He could take her to court for all sorts of stuff, including horse theft! But he had back surgery and a heart attack, and will likely let her get away with it. His health is the reason he sent Traveler there in the first place. Yes, I got screwed, but he got hurt worse, in my opinion.

Since you're not too far away from BJ's Spotted Saddle Horse Farm and Bells, TN, do you happen to know where I can get the address and/or phone number for the BBB in Crockett County? I'd really appreciate it if you can help me on this. It took me quite a while just to find a number for the Circuit Court down there. Crockett County doesn't have the greatest or most thorough website in the world! Thanks for any help you can provide!

Erin

Member:
Kari

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 5, 2005 - 4:42 pm:

Erin,

Apparently BBB does not have a local office there but does have a toll free number for this area. It is 1-800-222-8754.

I hate to stir the pot up again but I am concerned as to what exposure you may have in now selling Traveler. I would have to question that the SSH registry would be valid since she was never the true owner. Since Traveler is a gelding I don't see much coming of that unless someone pruchased the horse to show in SSH events and the matter of the registration was brought up. I would suggest that you sell Traveler as a grade horse and further that you keep a detailed log of all expenses incurred in the upkeep of Traveler, including the trips to and from Bells, as well as telephone charges,should the true owner decide to reclaim Traveler on the basis of theft. If there any chance the true owner would be willing to send you a letter confirming the ownership to you? In Tennessee a thief can not legally pass ownership.

I don't mean to alarm you further as I doubt anything will come up but ????.

Best of luck.
Member:
Erinport

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 5, 2005 - 5:19 pm:

Well, I believe that Barbara of BJ's must be an inspector for the SSHBEA, thus able to call anything she wants a Spotted Saddle Horse and register it. I'm going to get in touch with the SSHBEA office, and see about the validity of his registration with their organization. As far as the previous owner is concerned, I spoke to him last night on the phone. He has no desire to have Traveler back, as he has medical problems, which caused him to sell in the first place. He sent him to BJ's because he couldn't take care of Traveler while waiting for a buyer. Yes, he wants his money from her, but from the sound of our conversation on the phone, he's doubtful that he'll ever see it. I sincerely doubt that he'd try to take the horse back. Besides, he consigned the horse as grade, and there's nothing in writing that says Traveler was ever his. All papers have Barbara's name on them except the Coggins paper, which was from last February. The only thing he could produce is a consignment agreement. But on the same hand, I can produce a sales contract and receipt showing I bought him. I don't really know who would get screwed if he wanted him back. But maybe I'll call him again, just to cover my bases.

I understand I may have to sell him as a grade horse, which would probably lower his selling price. Stupid, because he's a gelding, but realistic. I'll just be very honest with the buyer about the situation. And I'll also get something in writing from the SSHBEA if possible. Man, what a mess!

On another note, I tried to call the 800 number you gave me, and it says that I've dialed a number that cannot be reached from my calling area. I'll see if I can find anything online about the BBB. Thanks, anyway!
Member:
Oscarvv

Posted on Thursday, Jan 6, 2005 - 8:29 am:

Erin,
You can file your complaint with the BBB on line. If you run a google search you will find them. I have had excellent results using the BBB online.
good luck,
Barbara
Member:
Lisamg

Posted on Thursday, Jan 6, 2005 - 5:27 pm:

Erin;

I've followed this thread for awhile. So sorry you got "taken" is such a painful (physical and emotional) way. All horse people are not dishonest. (don't give up on us)

Would you be able to keep Traveler and get another suitable horse to ride now? Maybe in the future you would be skilled enough to ride Traveler and this story could have a happier ending. You've put this much time and work into him .....

Just a thought.

Lisa
Member:
Erinport

Posted on Friday, Jan 7, 2005 - 9:43 am:

Lisa-

We considered that, but the money involved in keeping three horses instead of two is too much. And, we only have two people to ride right now, so his training and manners would likely go out the window in the time it would take us to be capable enough to handle him. He is at my trainer's right now, and she's keeping him ridden and working with him. She knows a lot of people who trail ride and do field trailing. The field trials start in February, so I imagine we might find someone interested in him within the next month or so. He was trained and used for field trials before we had him, so he'd be perfect for someone who wants to do that.

Besides the fact that we can't ride him yet, there is the issue of my mom getting thrown. My dad has never been a big fan of horses. He's one of those reluctant horse husbands, if you know what I mean. My husband and I keep our horses at his farm, and he charges us nothing. He feels very strongly about our gelding because of the accident with Mom. I really don't think it would be fair to him to keep the horse there anymore. He's had a pretty rough time watching Mom recover, and doesn't exactly have warm and fuzzy feelings for Traveler. I really do think it's best for everyone involved to just remove him from our lives, and start over with a more suitable mount.

We were suckers, and we've learned our lesson. And then, we were doing this on our own. Now, we have an excellent gaited horse trainer helping us out. I'm confident that this time around, we'll find the right horse.
Member:
Fototrop

Posted on Saturday, Jan 8, 2005 - 7:54 pm:

I just have to say bless you for doing the right thing by Traveler and not just dumping him.
Pam
Member:
Erinport

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 12, 2005 - 2:20 pm:

Hi Everyone-

Just wanted to post an update on the Traveler Saga.

I spoke to the SSHBEA's head inspector. Barbara is indeed a certified inspector for their organization, just as I'd guessed. His recommendation to me was to write a formal letter to the Board of Directors of the SSHBEA explaining the whole situation. He said that they would go over it at the next board meeting, which is this week. He said they may be able to revoke her rights as an inspector, due to the fact that she's abused her priveleges with them. They may also be able to restrict her ability to register horses with them. You see, she fabricated a foal date for the horse. The previous owner has no idea when Traveler was foaled, so how could Barbara? The SSHBEA doesn't think highly of fraudulence, especially among its inspectors. I'm not arguing the fact that he's a SSH. He's spotted and gaited, and that's enough. But he was fraudulently registered with a false foal date and in the wrong person's name. The guy told me that after the meeting, and after the board had voted on what to do about Barbara, they'd call me to tell me what the outcome was. She's got over 40 horses currently registered with the SSHBEA. Makes you wonder how many of them are legitimate, huh?

I also placed a call to the Crockett County Sherriff's office to report the conditions at her barn. Crockett County does not have any SPCA or Humane Society, and all animal cruelty cases are investigated by the sherriff's department. They were going to pay her a visit mid-;ast week. I'm supposed to call back this week to see what happened.

I also filed a formal written complaint with the Better Business Bureau, which will stay on file for quite some time, as I understand it. I told them the whole story, and told them that I'd like my money refunded. They are to contact her and notify me of her response (if any) within 30 days. I'm sure she'll tell me to go to hell, but at least the complaint has been formally filed.

Lastly, I've told the story of my experiences with BJ's Spotted Saddle Horse Farm on every horse forum and discussion board I've been able to find. According to law, as long as what I'm saying is truthful, it's not considered slander, libel, or defamation of character. I can basically tell everyone in the world about her, and she can do nothing about it, as long as what I say is true. I have plenty of witnesses to support everything I've said, including my trainer, my husband, my family, the seller, and a veterinarian. It's kind of funny, because she actually responded to one of these discussion boards, and we've gotten into quite the conversation. All I wrote initially was that I'd had a bad experience with her farm, and recommended that potential SSH buyers steer clear. Well, she's shooting herself in the foot by arguing with me about it on this website. I didn't say anything about the actual events that took place until she got on there. Now, she's succeeding in telling the story herself. I told her a couple times that I'd be happy to discuss it over the phone again, but she insists on putting it in writing. It can't possibly hurt me. I'm just a person who bought a horse. But the fact that she'll argue with me and expose herself and her business online is going to destroy her. Buyers will avoid a barn with any kind of derogatory issues, even if they're not completely sure they're true. She's just shooting herself in the foot by doing this, in my opinion. Which, really, is just fine. It makes it easier for me!

Thanks again for all the kind words and support. Traveler is with my trainer, and is doing fine. The longer she has him, the more convinced she becomes that he's a fine horse, but he takes a strong rider. Maybe in a couple years, he would have been right for us. But he never should have been represented as a beginner horse.
Member:
Erinport

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 22, 2005 - 11:21 pm:

Hi Everyone-

We still have Traveler, and he's still at my trainer's barn. And I'm still paying to keep him there, and to keep him ridden, until I sell him. Apparently he came to us with a ringworm and pinworm infestation, and we've just now gotten it cleared up, after a couple hundred dollars in vet bills. It's funny, because when we were at BJ's looking at him, Barbara was putting some cream on the skin around his tail. She told me it was just moisturizer, because he had an itchy tail. Stupid beginner that I am, I fell for it. That itchy tail turned into full-blown tail rubbing, with open bleeding from the dock of his tail and all surrounding areas. He reduced his tail to about half before we finally got it under control! Chalk another one up for BJ's!

My trainer has been riding him intermittently, and her final evaluation of him, both on and off the trail is that he's absolutely mistrustful of people, and it's going to take a very steady, very patient person to build that trust. He's unpredictable and hot on the trail, and is constantly waiting for the boogey man to jump out from behind every tree. She said he also knows exactly what type of rider is on his back, and will take full advantage of anyone less experienced in a heartbeat. Which is why, I imagine, my mom landed head-first in the dirt. She's fully recovered, by the way, with no lasting fear of horses, thank God. My trainer is trying to help me find him a suitable new home, with someone who can not only handle him, but help develop his potential to be a good horse. His gaits are awesome, but he's got no confidence in himself, and even less in his rider. We've taken him off the market for now, and are giving it a rest.

I've spoken at length with various people in the SSHBEA. They're fully aware of the situation, and are currently processing the complaint I filed. They could possibly, and likely, revoke all of Barbara's priveleges with the Association, if they deem it proper. I for one hope that they do. Anyway, they said that even though the papers were fraudulent, they still recognize him as a SSH, and still recognize whatever ownership is reflected on said papers. Because he's a gelding, it doesn't matter a whole lot. She is an authorized inspector for the SSHBEA, and there's no question as to whether or not he's of the breed. So the papers are legal, and stand. However, I've sent them in to have him registered in my name, and I'm officially changing his name back to what his TWH breeder called him as a colt, which is Midnight Traveler. I'm doing my best to remove anything and everything that says BJ's (registered name is BJ's Southern Traveler), as I've come across several different people, all over the U.S., that have had bad experiences with BJ's Spotted Saddle Horse Farm. So I'm trying to remove whatever stigma is left on him, and start over. Meanwhile, he'll remain in my trainer's care, and hopefully will begin to build some measure of confidence and trust. I hate sinking so much money into him, and my husband likes it even less. But, I believe that in buying him, I made a commitment to him, whether I like it or not. He never asked for me, and never asked to be in this situation. As the human, it's my responsibility to see that I do right by him. I'm not goig to dump him at a sale barn just to get him out of my life. God sent this horse to me for a reason (not to wax religious on anyone), and just maybe He wanted me to in some way make life better for Traveler. Sounds a bit philosophical, I know, but sometimes that's how I have to think to justify all the expense to myself. Everything happens for a reason. So I'll do whatever I can for him, and hope that my husband doesn't write off the whole horse experience before we even get started!

In a few weeks, once I've got his papers, and his shiny new name, I'll advertise him once again. But this time, he'll be billed as a horse for experienced riders only!
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 22, 2005 - 11:56 pm:

Erin,

Doing justice, loving mercy and walking humbly with your God . . . Wow! Your willing acceptance of responsibility and your wise compassion regarding the welfare of this horse and for anyone who may own him can only affirm your "philosophy," and secure extra blessings for you and your husband, as well as for Midnight Traveler and his future owner.

Your entire method of handling this "new horse owner" experience has been amazingly just, professional and noble . . . definitely educational and encouraging for me.

I look forward to hearing the "end of the story."
Member:
Canter

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 23, 2005 - 8:24 am:

Hi Erin,
" Ditto" to what Holly writes above...you've been through an awfully discouraging experience with Traveler and I commend you for doing what's best for this horse.

I wish you the absolute best in finding Traveler a wonderful and understanding new home so that you can move on and find the horse of your dreams.
Member:
Chrism

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 23, 2005 - 10:14 am:

<<<applause>>>

Standing O from me. Your halo is shining brightly!

Member:
Erinport

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 23, 2005 - 4:26 pm:

I'm simply handling things in a way that I feel I'll be able to walk away from and not feel badly about. Of course, my husband could walk away now and not feel badly, regardless of the outcome. But I'm an animal lover. Someone, somewhere along the line, is responsible for making Traveler the horse he is now. If, in some small way, I can correct that just a little bit, I'll feel like I did something for him during the time he spent in my care. If nothing else, at least his butt doesn't itch anymore!
Member:
Dyduroc

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 2, 2005 - 1:24 pm:

My hat it off to you, Erin. I, too, await the rest of the story.

D.
Member:
Erinport

Posted on Monday, Apr 4, 2005 - 10:53 pm:

Well, all, finally the Traveler story comes to an end. For us, anyway. My trainer, Vicci Eaton, of Marble Hill, Missouri, has traded us an excellent TWH gelding (that she hand-picked for us) for Traveler. She's had Traveler at her place for several months, and has been very good to us. I have paid her for board only, but I know for a fact that she has worked with him daily, and has never charged me for training (board plus training is twice the cost of board only). The entire time she's had him, she's been searching for the right horse for my husband. She finally found an awesome gelding and bought him. Then she called us and offered a trade. No, she wasn't chomping at the bit (pardon the pun) to become the pround new owner of our beloved Traveler. But she knew what a bad experience we've had thus far, and she really wanted to help us. Plus, from day one, she's seen a challenge in Traveler. She's the type who likes to find out why a horse is the way he is, not just deal with the symptoms.

She called me today, and told me that Traveler finally told her why he ran off with my mom. Vicci has ridden Traveler many, many times. She's a natural gaited horse trainer, and doesn't believe in harsh methods, for any reason. Horses, in her mind, NEVER deserve to be beaten, or abused, or broken down. Most of them just need adequate time and love. Well, she took Trav out on a ride yesterday, and he told her his issue. He was being a bit of a butthead, and was gaiting much quicker than she was asking, and he just wouldn't mind her. His mind was elsewhere. At one point, she got frustrated, and yelled something at him. The minute she raised her voice, she said he went absolutely, insanely, nuts. She said she's never seen a horse go so absolutely out of its mind. She said he was absolutely petrified, and she hadn't even touched him, only raised her voice. When he ran off with my mom, she had yelled "whoa" at him, at increasingly loud volume, then started screaming when he ran in earnest. He wasn't being mean, he was running for his life. Something about being yelled at sends this horse completely out of control.

Vicci has spoken with Traveler's previous owner (before BJ's). He gave her the name of the farm he came from, and she knows this farm to be a big name show barn in Tennessee. They use extremely harsh training methods, and are not natural trainers, to put it politely. Her theory is that at some point, this horse was likely screamed at and beaten upside his head by his rider. Now, any time someone screams or yells at him, he's petrified that he's going to get a beating.

Vicci has him still, and likely will for some time. The colt she had planned on riding and training for trail this summer went and got foolish and hurt himself. So it looks like Traveler will be her mount until the colt is fully healed. I have a feeling that with the gentle, natural training that she can provide for Traveler, he's going to blossom into an awesome horse. He may never fully trust people, but at least he'll have known love and kindness. And when it's time for her to move him on to his next home, she'll make absolutely sure that it's to someone who will love and understand him just as much.

As much as BJ's Spotted Saddle Horse Farm showed me that there are crooked snakes in the horse world, Vicci Eaton has shown me that there are incredible people in the fancy, as well. I credit her for helping to convince us to stay in horses, and to trust that there is enjoyment to be had. If any of you is ever looking for an awesome gaited horse trainer, give me a call, and I'll send you to Vicci.

Again, thank you all for your kind comments and advice over the past months. I'm happy to say that my part in Traveler's life is over, but I'm even happier to say that he's in a place where he can hopefully be the horse that he might have been, had he not seen abuse at an early age.

Erin
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 5, 2005 - 12:50 am:

Erin, thank you for a wonderful ending to a story about a "special needs" horse and about a great trainer who helps both horses and people. Enjoy your new horse.
Holly
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 5, 2005 - 1:03 am:

I love happy endings...


I am so glad it worked out. I have been following this thread and really understand how difficult it can be when you have a horse not meant for you. I have one too!
New Member:
Pamckay

Posted on Friday, Sep 30, 2005 - 7:09 pm:

Well, I guess I should have read this before I went to Bjs farm. I commend you Erwin for following this through to the happy ending.
I posted my story about dealing with BJs farm under the Forum for Business of horses, - Issue is related to a deposit I placed on a horse at BJs spotted saddle farm and they did not return. The horse did not fully pass a vet exam, yet they kept my deposit and sold the horse to another person. Pat
Member:
Lilly

Posted on Friday, Sep 30, 2005 - 10:10 pm:

After reading this thread I just had to do a Yahoo! search on BJ's. It looks like they are still up and running and haven't been affected by any bad press. It is interesting that they have a paragraph on their website, in small type, that explains how they resolve disputes....
Member:
Erinport

Posted on Friday, Dec 30, 2005 - 8:53 pm:

Hi Everyone-

I have yet one more post about Traveler for you all. My trainer, Vicci Eaton, just delivered Trav to a wonderful woman in Florida, over the Thanksgiving holiday. She kept Trav for nearly a year, and rode him continually. In her words, it took a little over six months for him to completely trust her, but he finally did. He went with her to Montana for a couple weeks of trail riding in the mountains, and has been a faithful, sturdy, sure-footed mount. She had a long-time customer who was looking for a new horse to replace her horse, who is now retired, and Vicci felt that she would be an excellent match for Trav, who we nicknamed "Itchy" (because of a terrible tail-rubbing habit he came to us with!). Well, Vicci was right. Traveler is now with a woman named Andrea, in Florida, and they're getting along wonderfully. Andrea knows all about his "special needs" and his past, and has the experience and kindness to deal with it gently and appropriately. She's riding him constantly, and everything's going just great.

I never contacted BJ's again after everything that happened. But I have heard from several unhappy people who had dealings with them. Yes, they're still in business, more's the pity. I wrote the Better Business Bureau in her area, I wrote the Spotted Saddle Horse Breeder's and Exhibitor's Association, and made a call to the sheriff's office, to report the hideous conditions at her barn. All of my letters and calls went for nothing. BJ's did respond to the BBB letter, but after that, nothing happened. She vehemently denies any wrong-doing. I don't know if Traveler's previous owner ever got paid by BJ's or not, and frankly, it's none of my business. Despite all of this, Traveler is safe and happy in a loving, gentle, natural home, enjoying the sights and sounds of Florida! I believe that there's a horse for every person out there, and a person for every horse. I'm so glad that I may have had a hand in helping Traveler find his person.

Erin
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Friday, Dec 30, 2005 - 10:09 pm:

Wonderful closing to this story, Erin. Thank you for letting us know. You are to be commended for your commitment to Traveler and to playing an important role in finding a suitable owner for him. I believe you stated that you are fairly new to horse ownership, yet you have shown more caring and commitment for a horse who wasn't "right" for you than some folks ever show even though they have been horse owners for most of their lives.
Best to you and yours in the New Year.
Member:
Twhgait

Posted on Saturday, Dec 31, 2005 - 11:35 am:

How wonderful there is a happy ending! And Erin, you and your trainer are wonderful and responsible horse owners for seeing Traveler thru this. Another person and the ending may not have been so good. I own TWH's and deal with alot of folks out of TN. I bought a stud down there that was left to starve in a back barn because he was contracting his tendons in the front (he was standing on his toes by the time he was found). My wonderful ex-vet (he lived here, then moved to TN) found him during another call at the same barn and told the guy he was either going to put him down right then or he was taking the horse with him. He ended up taking the horse with him cause the guy wouldn't even pay the money to put him down. I ended up with him after he had surgery and was recovered and back in training. Let's just say he went from one bad situation to another. It took alot of work and patience but he ended his stay with me sound and happy (and gelded, LOL). There are some very shady horse dealers out there and your experience is a good reminder of that. Please don't think I'm implying that all the shady dealers are in TN, I'm not! They are everywhere, but all of my dealings have been there and they aren't always good.
Member:
Green007

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 3, 2006 - 9:28 am:

Thats wonderful news Erin! I am so happy it all worked out for Traveler, thanks in full to your efforts. Here's to the good karma you have coming to you after what you did for him.
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