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  Discussion on City just passed a law to ban my horses- please help
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New Member:
Scobb

Posted on Sunday, Dec 17, 2006 - 9:55 pm:

We manage a 10-acre horse boarding and training facility in San Diego county, California. Our zoning is A70, with an "L" Animal Designator code, which means we are allowed an unlimited number of horses on our property. However, if we operate a business of boarding even ONE horse, the county requires us to obtain a Major Use Permit (MUP). This is the same permit required for a commercial mall or a slaughterhouse, etc. It is ridiculous, due to the fact that we could keep a hundred or more horses here. We are trying to obtain the MUP for 45 horses, including our personal horses. We have already spent $35,000.00 on engineers and county fees over the past year, and this is just the beginning. Most horse facilities in San Diego are operating illegally without the MUP, and the county leaves them alone until someone reports them. My concern is that these non-permitted facilities will eventually go out of business due to the ever increasing costs of obtaining the permit, if and when they finally decide to apply for the MUP. Other facilities will eventually sell to developers. Soon there will be few horse boarding facilities in San Diego county. The permit should be a "conditional use" permit, less expensive, and given with conditions to the current property owner. It is a HUGE endeavor to acquire the MUP; a very tedious, lengthy, expensive process.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 12:50 am:

Sally, obtaining a use permit is the major reason we are now in Utah instead of California. We were in N. Calif (Truckee) Our property had been a commercial horse facility since the early 70's if not longer. We bought it in the mid 80's. The 15 acres we owned became surrounded by a gaited community with CC&R's, minimum 5 ac. parcels, and expensive homes.

During the time we owend the property we spend LOTS of money improving the place, including new horse safe fencing, graveling the long drive, re-roofing and staining the buildings, landscaping, etc. We had 24 of our own horses and sometimes one or two boarders. We raised and showed Arabians.

During the years we owned the place, not only were we enveloped by the gaited community, but the town of Truckee became incorporated. Suddenly we needed a commercial permit as we were a "business" raising horses and boarding. We offered to get rid of our boarders; that didn't matter. We went to the first hearing by ourselves, thinking getting the permit was a formality and way to collect money. Were we ever wrong. We left the hearing realizing we needed a good lawyer.

By the time of the third hearing, we had spent thousands of dollars on legal fees, and had heard from people that we had thought were good friends, just how awful and dangerous the breeding business was. The homeowner's assoc. president(owned 2 horses and rode with me) testified that broodmare owners might ride their mares on the community roads, have an accident, and sue the homeowners. The community also didn't want large hay trucks using the roads.

Another "friend" testified as to how dangerous stallions were: they could kill dogs and small children and maybe rape women! (this was said by a person who I not only rode with, but for whom I'd spent 2 days and night riding in the mountains searching for her lost horse.)....you get the drift.

We began to realize that we were not wanted there...even though we had a very expensive piece of nice looking property. To top it all off, while this was going on, the county declared manure hazardous waste that must be contained in either concrete or metal until it could be hauled to the landfill. The day my husband heard this is the day the property went up for sale.

My advice to you is to start looking for a nice piece of property in another state and to quit spending money in California. You are fighting a loosing battle. Everyone I know in Calif. that has horses is having problems with the local government regardless of which part of the state they are in. Maybe one day California will wake up and realize how much money the horse industry is pumping into the economy; until that happens, cut your losses and run!
Member:
Steveb

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 1:10 am:

Seems to me, the problem is the Bureaucracy. Like rats, they operate best in the dark. Obviously someone (one of your neighbors, most likely) turned you in. Yes, you could hire a lawyer to "fight city hall," but that's expensive, time-consuming, and generally futile. If you want to bring those "rats" into the light, you need to (1) tape record every conversation with them, openly of course, but don't back down when they object, (2) contact every sympathetic newspaper reporter, even the small community papers, and try to get them on your side, (3) contact your local politicians, state assemblymen/women, and even your federal congressman. Ensure you send copies of each and every letter to the papers. Don't get nasty or use foul language, but stick to your guns. Bringing the "rats" into the light is the last thing they want...and your best option to fighting this sort of thing. If you really want to get carried away in this battle, contact a good private investigator to research the recent decisions these "rats"/bureaucrats have acted on and see if there's a pattern. "Follow the money" (or influence) is one of the tenets of investigative reporting. Again, you have no idea where it will lead, but the pressure may well cause your city "rats" to scurry for cover. It's better than wasting thousands of dollars on legal fees only to lose before some administrative judge or magistrate. And a lot better (and cheaper) than just folding your tent and moving somewhere else.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 7:58 am:

A good fight may make you feel better and in some areas you might even succeed, but is guaranteed to leave your coffers exhausted. From what I read, over the last few decades CA has concentrated a frightening amount of power in the hands of government who's main goal does seem to be to separate folks from their money. There are many businesses with far more resources than Sally that have done exactly what Sara recommends and the flight of business from CA to the surrounding states is a often reported event.

In this same vein, what has been the most frightening trampling on our property rights has been the recent decision of the supreme court to uphold eminent domain where the compulsory appropriation of private property was allowed for the purposes of developing the land for other private interests with the reasoning that it will improve tax revenues. I cannot emphasize how important it is for you to become politically aware of both local and national issues, study them, then vote appropriately. Note that this issue was decided locally then grew to a national decision. Local politics are very important, though the lack of reporting often makes it difficult to follow.

In the interest of what I consider the most important civil rights case of the past 10 years, Kelo v. City of New London, and a issue that is likely to effect the horse owning public, I will place here how the judges voted, include their political leanings as assigned by Wikapedia, and then place the president they were appointed by. They are placed in chronological order of when they were appointed to office:

Voting to uphold the decision for the right of local government to appropriate property for the purpose of turning over to other private citizens:
John Paul Stevens, liberal, Richard Nixon
Anthony M. Kennedy, moderate-conservative, Reagan
David H. Souter, liberal, 1st Bush
Ruth Bader Ginsburg, liberal, Clinton
Stephen G. Breyer, liberal, Clinton

Those dissenting and voting to protect the private property rights of the citizens:
William H. Rehnquist, conservative, Nixon
Sandra Day O'Connor, moderate, Reagan
Antonin Scalia, conservative, Reagan
Clarence Thomas, conservative, 1st Bush
DrO
Member:
Scobb

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 9:53 am:

Thank you for your feedback and advice. Right now we are in the middle of the CEQA Traffic study (one of many CEQA studies required to obtain the permit). We have been hoping to learn (before Christmas) whether DPW - Department of Public Works - will require that we relocate an SDGE pole that has been in it's current location for 60 years, without causing any "danger to the public". If they mandate we move the pole (about $100K to do so) then this is where we will cut our losses.

The manure is considered hazardous waste, however, once you purchase red worms and put them in the manure to "do their thing" it is not considered hazardous waste, nor does it draw flies, nor does it have odors. We have been given approval from the Local Solid Waste Enforcement Agency to have a vermiculture operation and are allowed to leave the manure on the property while the worms do their thing. Currently, we let a local worm farmer take all our manure, but in the future, we may want to do our own vermiculture.

Real estate prices are so depressed around here right now, we probably won't sell for awhile, but we have been considering moving out of state if we can find a horse-friendly location where the weather isn't too harsh. We are looking into areas of Texas including near Austin.

Several local boarding facilities have obtained their Major Use Permit over the past five years, so I can't believe it is impossible for us to obtain, although it is an extreme financially and emotionally draining process.

The idea of contacting the media has crossed my mind, and I will pursue this avenue. The way I figure, if DPLU and DPW want us to get the permit, they will make a way. If not, they have the power to make it too difficult for us.

I'll keep you updated with our progress! And oh, it was a vengeful former assistant manager who turned us into the county and tried to destroy our business the entire year after she left. She has done this to three barn owners so far. Wouldn't want her karma!
Member:
Dres

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 10:12 am:

Dr. O , eminent domain, now is also being called 'in the common good' here in N.CAL. We too are right in the middle of such an argument.. New homes are being built right behind my arena, all the land owners around me are retired and can't wait for the ''BIG'' offer from the developers and want to sell.. We on the other hand LOVE it here and don't... So we went to the Village Two meeting (we are in the sphere of development) and we were told that for the common good that we could be forced to sell. yup its all about taxes and money for the near by city that is annexing the county into it.. :-(

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 10:13 am:

Sally, would you mind telling us what part of S.D. area you are in? My brother lives between Del Mar track and Rancho Santa Fe, and I lived in that area during high school and college and my brother and I still own property down there. I am boarding my sister-in-laws horse up here because she can't afford to keep her down there at a place where she can get turn out. It would cost her over $1000/mo.

That entire area used to be so "horsey." Rancho still has trails all over the place, and Escondio used to. It's sad how it is changing.

You might look at S. Utah if you haven't already. Both St. George and Cedar City are really growing and the area is very animal friendly. Although property has gone up a lot in the last few years, it is cheap compared to Calif. What ever you decide I'd love it if you kept us posted, and best of luck to you.

Dr.O, you are preaching to the choir here! Very interesting which way some of the judges voted. I read that on Drudgereport after the vote, but had forgotten. I agree that what is happening is very scarey. IMO some of our basic rights are being taken away from us very sneakily, slowly, piece by piece and people are unaware and many are unconcerned. gosh....don't let me get on my soapbox here!
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 10:13 am:

Sally, would you mind telling us what part of S.D. area you are in? My brother lives between Del Mar track and Rancho Santa Fe, and I lived in that area during high school and college and my brother and I still own property down there. I am boarding my sister-in-laws horse up here because she can't afford to keep her down there at a place where she can get turn out. It would cost her over $1000/mo.

That entire area used to be so "horsey." Rancho still has trails all over the place, and Escondido used to. It's sad how it is changing.

You might look at S. Utah if you haven't already. Both St. George and Cedar City are really growing and the area is very animal friendly. Although property has gone up a lot in the last few years, it is cheap compared to Calif. What ever you decide I'd love it if you kept us posted, and best of luck to you.

Dr.O, you are preaching to the choir here! Very interesting which way some of the judges voted. I read that on Drudgereport after the vote, but had forgotten. I agree that what is happening is very scarey. IMO some of our basic rights are being taken away from us very sneakily, slowly, piece by piece and people are unaware and many are unconcerned. gosh....don't let me get on my soapbox here!
Member:
Scobb

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 10:21 am:

We are located exactly where Bonsall, Escondido, Vista, and Valley Center meet. Our address is actually in Valley Center, which is north of Escondido and south of Temecula. There are still plenty of boarding facilities in Del Mar and RSF area that are not $1,000/month. How about Cherokee Stables a private place called Misty Acres - in RSF. There is also a place called Forest Hill that has huge turnouts and access to the RSF trails. That one has been purchased by a developer, though. With all the development in San Diego county the past 20 years after growth control went out the window, don't they have enough property tax revenue? What about human health and happiness? We all NEED open space for our mental health!
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 11:56 am:

I know the area well where you are located. It's pretty country...or it used to be.

Kathy (sister-in-law) told me the only place she could find that offers daily turn out (in a field) was $1000/mo. She was in a place about a mile from where she live (just up the road from Morgan's Run/Whispering Palms) but she was evicted. The stable is in a gaited horse community, and people who live there have first priority. She was told a homeowner needed the stall. However, she said that everyone who rode western was told to leave?! I've heard the same story from other horse owners, too. Sounds weird, but...so do a lot of things I hear from Calif.! I'll mention the two barns you mention to her.

Not only do we mentally need open spaces, but what about agricultural needs? I'm sure you've seen what's happening to all the strawberry, tomato, etc.fields all over S. Calif. , to say nothing of the citrus and avacado groves. The same outlandish growth is happening in the east, too. I go to Long Island, NY on business and what was once potato, cauliflower, corn fields is now houses. And, if it's not houses, it's been turned into vineyards for the tourist trade.
Member:
Boomer

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 1:42 pm:

oh, my god, western riders were booted? How could riding english make you a better horse person? because they wear those little pants and cute boots? sounds like a pompus woman thing to me. (I know I am stereotyping)...
Susan, I am so sorry for your situation. I really hope for the best for you. I'd say move to Washington, I think we are a little more relaxed and we are not too bad when it comes to zoning. The weather is different that what you are used to though
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 2:09 pm:

It does not matter where in the country you live, it seems that we are loosing our rights. We here in Iowa are fighting the huge corporate hog factories. I think they have already done a job on the Carolinas!
We have one directly to the south of us, and tried fighting the placement of one to the northwest. Even though we have a vested business, it did not matter about our opinion on how it would affect our property and business. I called on local to state government, and only learned how versed they all are in passing the buck.
It is frightening to realize that what is so obviously "Right" is so easily blurred by Greed and Power.
Good Luck with your plight
suz
Member:
Mcbizz

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 2:40 pm:

Susan M., Because one person complained about horses and donkeys "making too much noise" this same problem you are describing presented itself in north Reno, Washoe County. All property owners have a minimum of one acre, many have more. Livestock was to be banned on one acre properties, the idea being one horse per acre, not including the dwelling. People showed up in DrOves at the county offices, one man took his horses! It did not pass. In another situation a respected trainer had to fight to keep her business on her property (she has at least five acres) because a neighbor complained.
Her supporters (me included) started a petition, it went to court and she won. It can be done...The thing that is so annoying is these properties have long been zoned for horses, so why do people move out here if they object? Good luck to you...don't give up!
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 4:23 pm:

Carolyn, they move there for the same reason people move near airports then complain about the noise!
Member:
Mcbizz

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 5:13 pm:

Sara, isn't that the truth! You're experience in Truckee, CA must have been something! I nearly fell off my chair when you said a neighbor complained that stallions might rape women...did she read too much Freud??? What scares me, is that it appears as California goes, Nevada follows. Hopefully that is not the case...
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 7:49 pm:

I know people that live in Gardnerville area -remember that pretty, rural valley? They are having complaints already. They have a beautiful small family farm with horses and a couple of cows. New people don't want the flies and smells! And, their place is beautiful and clean. They are up near the Geiger Grade road.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 7:53 pm:

btw, Stephen, I love your comparison of bureaucrates to rats!!
Member:
Mcbizz

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 12:15 pm:

Sara, I love the Minden/Gardnerville area. Used to drive down there once or twice a month when I was still working, outside sales. Those little farm/rances are dream properties. Too pricey and too far out of Reno for us, but I certainly hope too many rules and regulations don't creep in there.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 5:24 pm:

Carolyn, I don't know how long you've lived in the Reno area, but (oh, hate to admit this!) I've been driving through the Washoe Valley since the mid-60's. You really would have loved it then! big cattle/horse/alfalfa farms; pretty ranch houses, etc. So beautiful!!
Member:
Mcbizz

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 6:51 pm:

Sara, we moved from Portland to Reno in 1977. Moved to our Lemmon Valley home in 1982. We had bought a half Egyptian Arabian/half Welsh pony (McCleod Arabians)for our little daughter, so moved out of Reno so we could have him (and quickly added two more horses!) on the property. At that time they were building the MGM, and Reno was a quiet little city! I bet you showed your horses at what later became the Livestock Events Center. We were there! And I wouldn't be surprised if you were involved with the Comstock Arabian Club...
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 9:40 pm:

Carolyn, You've got me pegged! Showed at all the Region III shows and helped put on the the Egyptian Event West the couple of years they had it in Reno. Showed in it, too. Was a member and showed with Comstock, and rode with the Vaquerros...is that group still around? My last name was Couch when I rode with the Vaquerros. Sure had a lot of fun in that area! Before I lived in Truckee, I lived in Mammoth Lakes and then Verdi. Just loved that area then. Still have a lot of great friends there and visit when I can.
Member:
Dres

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 10:57 pm:

Dang, Sara, you sure get around.. Military?

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 11:29 pm:

Raised in the Army, married into the Navy! Then, got divorced, moved; re-married and moved to Truckee where I thought I'd live forever...you heard that story; so now think I'll live in UT forever!
Member:
Mcbizz

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2006 - 12:18 pm:

Sara, I haven't heard anything about the Vaquerros in the past few years, but I've been kind of out of touch with group things. Our daughter (now lives in New York City) was the one that participated in shows with our half Arabians. I was her helper and groom.
Let me know next time you swing by this area...I would love to meet you, have a drink(or two) and lunch!
Member:
Dawson

Posted on Thursday, Dec 21, 2006 - 3:54 pm:

Sorry to hear about your plight. I live in the northeast. A friends family had a horse ranch on the same property for almost one hundred years.(Portions were sold offover the years)

Behind the property was a wooded parcel of land, half belonged to the family, and the other half owned by the town who sold to developers. Although there remained a two acre wooded parcel of land between the horse ranch and the new homes, the new home owners filed suit because one of their children was severly allergic. (Afraid of horse hairs floating in the wind) Now common sense says why did they purchase a new home near a well-established horse ranch if your child is severly allergic?

Anyways... the battle raged on in the courts for almost six years, and yes my friends horse ranch which had almost been around since the days of Paul Revere, was allowed to stay under certain terms making it very difficult for them to operate. At that point it did not matter any more the family had sunk every dime they had into the law suit which meant selling off the horses-tack-carriages-everything, they won the suit but lost everything along the way.

While the suit was in the courts the family was baraged with daily complaints and never ending inspections from local dog officer-state livestock inspector-MSPCA-local police, all complaints were determined frivolious. But they accomplished what they were meant to, and that was to give the ranch not a moment of peace.
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