This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Equine Business and Law » Legal Discussions » Buying, Selling and Leasing »
  Discussion on Libality after the sale of a horse
Author Message

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 18, 2000 - 10:43 pm:

I sold a horse to a lady 6 days ago. I guarantee all my horses to be sound and will take them back if they don't work out. The buyer called this am to say that her vet diagnosed the horse with mild colic 2 days ago( he also wormed the horse at this time). The horse became very ill last night and she took him to a vet. college. She said they told her it would cost about 200/day and could not guarantee the horse would recover.She choose to put him down and did not contact me until now. should I reimburse her for the horse?

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 19, 2000 - 3:44 am:

Ref: Fairplay horse

I am not a lawyer, but the answer appears to be clear here which is: NO. You are not obligated to pay for this person's loss, but I need to ask a question here:

Did you sign a contract and what does the contract say?

The horse could have colicked as a result of shipping or change in feed/environment. It happened to one of my horses I shipped over to a friend.
However, if it could have been established that the horse died as a result of worm overload, then there may be a problem, unless you could prove without a reasonable doubt that you had this horse on a regular worming schedule.

Also, this woman should have consulted you on the decision to have the horse euthenized.

Again, the overriding criteria will be the contract you have signed with this woman.
Regrettably, the real victim was the horse....

Sabine

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 19, 2000 - 8:16 am:

Sabine,
I had only had the horse for 2 days. I buy and sell horses. As with all my horses, I give a written guarantee for soundness and will take them back in trade if they don't work out. My bill of sale specifies "as is" except as noted above.The horse looked great when she received him. She also tried him out on a trail ride. This customer is a ready nice person who I think may have made some poor decisions esp. by not contacting me when the horse became ill. I would have been glad to have picked him up and refunded her money at that point. Thanks for your interest. Lynn

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 19, 2000 - 10:09 am:

Hello All,
I agree with Sabine, I do not see how you are morally responsible. Even if the horse is found to have some ticking time bomb in her that happen to blow up on her how were you to know? The only way I would think you are responsible is if you had done something to cause the colic, but if she had the horse for six days, and it was healthy those six days, I cannot imagine what that would have been.
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 19, 2000 - 1:02 pm:

From a more pragmatic viewpoint - you need to evaluate:

How much did the customer pay for the horse versus how much you might spend in legal fees defending yourself in court, and

If this is a customer that can do your business harm (unhappy people tell LOTS of people about their unhappy experience) and whether it is a customer relationship you want to maintain for the long haul.

Rightly or wrongly, the rule of business is that the customer is always right.

So, although it appears you have no legal or moral responsiblity in this instance, are there other pressing considerations that might cause you to offer her a replacement horse or a partial/full refund if she signs a release of responsiblity.

Did she have the horse vetted before purchase?

I know of a situation where a "known" horse was purchased by a student and when it went lame 6 weeks later, the student sued the original owner and the vet who did the pre-purchase. The suit was not settled in the plaintif's favor, but the defendants spent serious money defending themselves. The original owner of the horse had to decided sell another when she didn't want to in order to fund legal fees. Nuisance suits can be quite expensive.

Quite frankly, "cavaet emptor" is the really the norm in the horsetrading business. But not everyone realizes it.

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 19, 2000 - 2:34 pm:

Hi everyone
Thanks for all the input. To address some of the questions: The buyer did tell me after the horse was put down that the horse had seemed a little depressed after she took him home compared to being friendly and alert here. She must not have been to concerned because she didn't schedule her vet to come see him until 4 days after she took him home (this was for a purchase exam). She has not directly asked for her money back. She has just stated "I'm out the 1250 for the horse and at least 600 on vet bills and don't even have a horse to give back to you." I'm just trying to decide what if any compensation I should offer. I have several options: 1)to refund the purchase price, 2)to replace the horse free of charge, 3)to allow a discount on another horse-maybe 625.00 toward another horse,and offer to keep the horse free of charge until vet checked by vet of her choice, or 4)to offer no refund and explain she took that choice from me when she did not notify me prior to the horse being put to sleep. It is also of interest to note that the vet school did not recomend she put the horse down but she decided to do this from an expense point of view. I do a lot of word of mouth business and would hate to loss some due to bad feelings but at the same time if I absorb this kind of loss unnecessarly I can't stay in business.I have sold 187 horses in the last 6 months with only 2 unhappy customers(I had to reposses theirs do to none payment). I have exchanged horses for customers when they didn't work out and have managed to find horses that did work out well. Not bragging but I put a lot of work into my business and stand behind my guarantees.

Posted on Thursday, Jan 20, 2000 - 12:53 pm:

It is a difficult dilemma.

Business research indicates that 1) if people get the deal they expect, they tell only a few people, 2) if they have a problem that isn't resolved to their satisfaction, they tell a lot of people, and 3) if they have a problem that is resolved to their satisfaction, they tell the most people.

Perhaps this is an opportunity to get some positive word of mouth. Perhaps if you ask the customer what she thinks is fair, you could come up with something that won't be too difficult to accept.

It is generous of a horse sales business to accept a return of an animal. Most of the individuals I know selling a horse do not allow trials/returns or provide any guarantees.

I hope you can sort out something that makes sense for the situation.

Cheers.

Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2000 - 11:54 am:

FPlay-
Already I am impressed, most dealers in our area
would unload the horse dead and say it wasen't
their problem.

Personally speaking from a business owners
perspective bad news travels faster than good
news, especially in the horse world. I agree that
you probably have no obligaiton legal/moral to
refund money, but only you can decide what is best
for you business. If this was a private-private
sale I would definatly say tuff luck to her, but
you have other considerations.

I will say that a token offering made before she
has time to think about it and get mad might stop
her from thinking she was wronged. My experience
is that if you wait for them to ask, they ask for
more than they deserve.

Another point is I question what business this
woman has owning a horse if she is not prepared to
handel a serious vet bill. These expences are
inevitable. The purchase price of the horse they
say is the chaepest part of owning a horse, this I
have found to be true.

Best of luck, this is a hard call. Let us know how
it turns out.

Emily

Posted on Friday, Jan 21, 2000 - 6:08 pm:

We have many a different opinion on this horse deal having taken a turn for the worst [for the horse that is], and it appears that everybody brings forth a good point. However, a situation such as this has to be looked at with long term business sense. It has never really been established here as to what was wrong with the horse except for the fact that he needed surgery. I take it it was due to the colic incident. Well, there are many different colic surgeries from a very uncomplicated one to one where parts of the intestine has to be cut out, so the cost and outcome will vary. The first thing I would do is request the vet surgeons diagnosis and prognosis and go from there. Colic can have many different causes as well, ranging from the horse having had a history of colic problems to this having been due to shipping, rapid change of feed, and or heavy worm infestation, etc. The fact that the new owner has not yet brought forth a suit or formal complaint may indicate that she realizes she made a mistake somewhere. She put off having the horse vetted out. This may indicate that she never had any intentions to have the horse vetted because she shied the expenses. Obviously, she didn't want to put any more money into the horse when he needed surgery, but her decision to euthanize the horse was hers, not the vet's and without consultation of the seller. The first thing she should have done is call the vet, discuss it with him, then contact the seller and discuss the situation some more. Frankly, from a legal standpoint, unless not all was told, there isn't much she can blame the seller for, so the seller is not legally obligated to replace the horse.
That this is an unfortunate loss for the woman and an uncomfortable situation for the seller is a different story, and could perhaps be worked out one way or another. The lady's loss is a horse of a certain value, but the value of a horse is arbitrary. Perhaps a very inexpensive horse of equal quality, breed, size, etc can be located to appease the woman and her loss. I don't think the monetary value is of great importance here. There are many a good horse to be found at auctions or by way of searching on the net, and it may just take a little time and patience. The seller may cancel her profit on the horse and offer that part to the owner.

I have a little bit of a problem with simply giving the woman her money back without any kind of discussion on this matter. Horses are very fragile and unpredictable sales 'objects.' One day fine, the next day dead.
Suppose a horse gets sold and ends up with EPM ? Will people buy a $1200 horse and have it checked for EPM? What about the dealer? Can you take X-rays of a horse you buy at an auction? You get what you get, period, and you can take the horse back, but not a dead one.

If the seller wants to show good and honest intentions, then some sort of a deal must be possible.
I am not so quick at judging the woman for having ordered the horse destroyed. This kind of surgery can run into money, and she may be more responsible having had the horse put to sleep than to run up a high bill and not be able to feed the horse. Again, it would all depend on how badly the prognosis was. What the woman should have done is call the seller and inform her of the first bit of trouble.

I don't think this incident will blemish your reputation, but perhaps it would be nice of you to work something out with this woman who-- as she stated-- not only ended up with a vet bill but also without a horse. Kind of sad.

Best wishes
Sabine

Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2000 - 7:09 am:

Hello Sabine and everyone,
Sabine, I think you misunderstood. No mention of surgery was made. The vet school wanted to treat the horse with IV fluids and antinflammatories. I think the situation has come to a close. I've summarized this in the GI problem section under colitis. But here what has come about. The buyer asked me to reimburse her for half of the purchase price and the vet bills. I told her that I had contacted many resources and all had advised that I did not have a moral or legal responsibility for this since I was not contacted prior to the horse being put down(this did not have to be a split-second decision) and no one can establish if the horse was ill here or if something happen after she got the horse home. I made a good will offer of half the purchase price and have given her the chance to purchase another horse at cost(leaving it on my premises until vet checked by a vet of her choice). Since she buys and resales a few horses,this gives her a chance to make back some of her money. She was not happy but asked me to mail the check. Hopefully, we have both learned something from this. I've changed my bill of sales to require immediate notification of me of problem and stated I cannot be responsible for injuries or illness that occur after the horse leaves my premises. I'm also going to request that if a horse is sold before he has been here for 2 weeks that he be left here at my expense for that time period or that the buyer sign a statement with the bill of sale stating they are aware that I recomend to keep the horses away from other horses for that time period. Perhaps she has also gained some wisdom from all of this. It's a shame a really nice horse lost his life for this. Thanks for all the opinions,Lynn

Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2000 - 8:48 am:

Lynn

I think you did more than the "right thing."
This woman looks very suspect to me. Yes, I did misunderstood. I had thought that the vets had said that he needed colic surgery. In any event, the vets must have made some kind of diagnosis which should still be available, just in case.

Actually, I would have been furious myself had I been in your place. How dare she put the horse down without your consultation. Now that she asked half the money and the vet cost, she must have thought that you would give her the money back.... she was definitely wrong, and no insurance co. would pay a dime in this case since it was not a "dead" emergency. The woman should be really happy to get half her purchase price. She actually doesn't deserve a dime under the circumstances. I didn't know she was some kind of horse dealer. Apparently, she knew what she was doing and had no sympathy for the horse. Had she consulted with you on the issue, the outcome may have perhaps been different, also for the horse.

It's good that you have changed your sales contract. Make sure people read it too before signing it, LOL!!

Best of luck;
Sabine

Posted on Monday, Jan 24, 2000 - 2:59 pm:

Fairplay,

I think you were very, if not more than, fair, too.

Sounds like a hard lesson all around. Your admendment to the purchase contract sounds right on.

I am surprised that anyone that has any experience in buying/reselling horses such as your client would have any idea that you owed them anything. It is very peculiar that she did not call when the horse was taken ill, prior to putting it down.

I'm beginning to wonder if you should ask for a "release of responsiblity" to be signed prior to issuing a refund?

Thanks for sharing with us all. It is a real eye-opener.

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 22, 2000 - 3:50 pm:

I think it is agreed that there is no legal liability on the seller. We all know what can go wrong after the transfer of possession on a horse sale. The buyer clearly takes on the responsibilities of ownership and care of the horse. I am curious about the terms of the contract (I hope there was a contract). I also agree that concern for one's reputation is a very strong concern.
There is always a middle ground as long as we focus on our interests and not our positions. And, it is best to maintain communications before positions harden.
Perhaps in your discussions with the buyer as to what "she thinks is fair" you can provide her another (higher quality)horse (either one you own or one you obtain for this purpose) with this buyer paying the difference in value; or a discounted difference on the higher value of the new horse.
She gets her horse, though she pays a little more for it. You keep your reputation, perhaps even being a hero in the horse community, and you make a little more money on the transaction.
I recommend that if the buyer is already "difficult" to deal with that a neutral mediator's assistance be utilized.

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 7, 2001 - 11:31 am:

A friend of mine purchased a horse (from a friend of mine) that, after a few months, had to be euthanized due to severe arthritis (similar to hip displasia. The whole story, complete with autopsy pictures and reports are located at: https://reganranch.com/mystique.htm

The dispute of whom was to blame is ongoing. This incident is the source of huge dispute among those of us in the NW. Your input might be enlightening.

Thank you,
Ginger
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC