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  Discussion on Could the seller not have known???
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Member:
Leec

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 19, 2006 - 4:44 pm:

Hi DrO,
My yearling filly contracted Strangles (proven by tested culture) within 8 days of my bringing a new horse home. The mare I brought home was born and raised on the farm I bought her from. The sellers are well respected and liked in the local horse community. They have been breeding, raising, training, showing and selling horses for years. Is it at all possible that the owners could not have known that this mare had Strangles? They said she had 'the cold' that went through the barn in November 2005. They also said some of their other horses had 'the snots' in January 2006. I asked what virus it was and they said 'oh, just a flu' - I suppose I am too trusting and naive for not pushing it... I did not have a vet check done on this mare because of the sellers fine reputation. My vet feels this mare had Strangles and is still shedding it. If I had known this mare had it, I would have done some research on Strangles prior to buying this mare. NOW that I know a whole lot about it, I would not have bought the mare without having her tested to see if she was free of it. AND I would not have bought her if she was a carrier. I now have brought Strangles to my property and neighborhood via this mare. As well, have the expense, stress and frustration of treating my yearling and the responsibility of 'contamination control'. I have friends with bred mares and or foals at their sides in my neighborhood. They know it's not my fault, but I'm scared to go to their places and I've asked them not to come here... I have left a message for the seller to call me, but they have not. I would like them to refund my money and take the mare back that I purchased - I trail ride and I will not take her out of the yard for fear of spreading the disease. I can barely pay the vet bill for my filly and do not want the added expense of testing this mare and then treating her. Do you think it is an unreasonable request to ask them to take this mare back? If they refuse, is there anything I can do legally?
Lee C
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 19, 2006 - 6:45 pm:

What kind of research did you find that put you in such a tizzy? i was under the impression strangles will run its course. it will either be mild or could be bad (which yours seems not to) deadly even with some horses but then its over. The horse will always test positive for it as a carrier, but once its gone its gone. and can't infect more horses. If this horse has had it since november isn't it reasonable to think his case of it is mild?

Getting the horse treated for strangles is something you must now do? and its a nice thing you did by calling all your neighbors, but i do think there is a time frame of contagiousness. And then its over.

Yes, i think its unreasonable to ask for a refund considering you said yourself you did NOT get a vet check. and buyer beware. I am going thru the same thing with a little pony, of should i or shouldn't i bothering with all the vet checks and tests, but i know that once i get her she is mine. And can't hold the seller's responsible because i made the choice NOT to get a vet check.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 20, 2006 - 9:04 am:

You certainly can ask Lee but unless you have some proof they knowingly sold you a sick horse, it would not be unreasonable for them to refuse. If they have not had any problems on the farm since Jan they are as surprised at this as you are. Strangles is a common infection of horses and occasionally you run into an individual that is carrying it a bit longer than is typical and it a chronic carrier, I don't know how they would know that as this is an asymptomatic state. As joj states this will run its course and though it looks uphill right now it will come to an end. I presume you have read our article on taking care of this, you can stop it in its tracks following our recommendations.
DrO
Member:
Leec

Posted on Thursday, Apr 20, 2006 - 6:37 pm:

It was a combination of things, joj that put me in such a 'tizzy' about it and I guess I needed a place to vent my frustrations – the writing of my post was therapy for me. I have had nothing but bad luck with my horses over the past 2 years and this 'now another thing' toppled me over the edge. The dam of my filly somehow 'blew' her knee 5 months into her pregnancy, at 8 months in she tied up severely (never did figure out how/why, even after blood tests) – we were shocked she didn’t lose the foal. One day after giving birth, the mare developed mastitis. When the foal was 2 weeks old she incurred a stifle injury (probably accidentally kicked by Mom) – chipped her Tibia and the injury was further complicated by a hematoma that developed into an abscess. 3 months later, an umbilical hernia developed and was clamped, but baby cast herself and tore it off prematurely – surgery followed. As a result of all her troubles this filly HATES vets and vetting, especially needles. We had finally desensitized and conditioned her to the point where we could give her vaccinations this spring without excessive restraint or her injuring herself or one of us. She trusts no one but me... However, yesterday for the first time ever she did not want me to catch her (to hot compress, clean and flush her abscess) and it broke my heart. Today she is 1 year old – she doesn’t look very 'happy' in her 'happy birthday' photo. The people I bought my new mare from knew about all the struggles I’ve had with this filly – her sire is their stallion. So, I suppose I thought if they knew there might be a chance of transferring a disease, they would warn me. However, now that I have my emotions under control and am able to think straight, I have no intention of trying to return my new horse – I quite like her. Interestingly enough, she is the first horse I have ever purchased without a vet exam – not that a standard exam would have found Strangles unless we were specifically looking for it, would it DrO? Strangles is almost unheard of around here, so most people know little about it and panic at the mention of it. This is the first time in my 38 years that I have encountered it. My vet is maybe a little stricter than some and feels all horses should be tested after clinical recovery, to ensure they are not still carrying. joj, the information I gathered was via my vet, vet books and online. Correct me if I’m wrong in what I say here DrO – I have also read all the information on this site... Most horses can be infectious to susceptible animals for at least 6 weeks after the clinical signs of Strangles have resolved. After that most are no longer infectious (however, the facilities, equipment, water troughs etc. can be a source of infection to susceptible animals if not properly disinfected). Some horses fully recover from the disease, but are 'carriers' and continue to be infectious for prolonged periods of time through 'shedding' it. These horses have retained S equi in their guttural pouches and if not treated, can be a source of infection to susceptible animals for months or even years. About 75% of horses develop a solid immunity to the disease after recovering from it. Those who are treated with antibiotics at the wrong stage of the disease are susceptible to re-infection as it can inhibit the development of protective immunity from it. Unfortunately, my filly did not present as 'textbook', so we were unable to 'stop it in its tracks' with Penicillin. The evening prior to the first 'symptom', she was full of beans when I brought her in from turn out, excited about her dinner – later in the evening she was prancing around her paddock with her tail in the air... The next morning I knew there was something wrong when I went to go feed and she didn’t call to me or come out of her shelter to greet me. When I approached her she was backing up with her head held high like she was trying to swallow, foam and saliva were dripping from her mouth – first I thought 'choke'. And then I saw the fist sized lump under her right jowl, so I thought maybe she had somehow smashed her jaw on something. The lump definitely was not there when I haltered and unhaltered her the previous evening. I called my vet. Because she had already developed an abscess prior to any other symptoms (no cough, no snotty nose – no reason to take her temp...), we elected not to treat her with Penicillin. We put her on Quadrisol (a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory that has fewer side effects over a prolonged period of time than Bute), so that she can eat and drink some while the disease runs its course. However, even on the Quadrisol, she has lost a lot of weight in only a week. After her abscess ruptured, the snotty nose and cough started. The nursing of Strangles is the worst part, I don’t wish it on anyone – trying to keep them eating/drinking/pooping. The abscess cleaning, snot removal – my filly blew out her nostrils this AM whilst I was doing that and covered my face with copious amounts of it. I wanted to laugh and/or cry, but did not want to risk opening my mouth for either... I’m sure any of you who have treated horses with this disease can agree it’s got to be one of the most disgusting, messy things going! I don’t know, maybe some people don’t bother with the nursing part. Wow, this is a long post... my apologies.
Lee C
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Thursday, Apr 20, 2006 - 9:04 pm:

Well now its full blown. How odd you said November they had colds. and now 6 months later she was harboring it so long. Seems odd. it can just happen, though. I know its more than likely another horse gave it to her, but not unheard of to just "get it". poor thing.

I've never seen the messy part. When friends were treating it i stayed far away. and i mention that it was nice of you to inform others, because this one friend of mine came to my house, tramped all over, and then 2 weeks later i find out 3 of her horses were being treated for strangles. Talk about wanting to strangle someone....

Can't penn work now? or once its presented does no good.

good luck with your horse, and glad you aren't going to send him off. just remember bad luck comes in patches, and for all the bad you will get good patches, too. we just tend to remember the bad.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Apr 20, 2006 - 9:20 pm:

Lee,

I think we all understand about the "typing therapy" and need to vent. I have decided I don't know what I hate more: Buying or selling a horse!! I just don't trust people when it comes to horses, so I have a few that should of been sold a long time ago, but then I'd have to shop for a new one.

Anyhow, good luck with your situation. Believe it or not, most things we worry about work themselves out just fine.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Apr 21, 2006 - 7:50 am:

If the horse were a completely recovered carrier animal it probably would not have been found on a prepurchase, but neither would the sellers have known. My experience with treating Strangles early has been good and they don't come down with it once recovered suggesting immunity to me but there are no studies on this. What is the ingredient in the active ingredient in the Quadrisol?
DrO
Member:
Leec

Posted on Friday, Apr 21, 2006 - 12:49 pm:

Hi all,
Thank you joj and Angie for your encouraging words. Sienna looks a little brighter this AM - yay! DrO, Quadrisol's active ingredient is Vedaprofen - here is the link to the product on the suppliers website if you'd like more info...

https://www.intervet.ca/products/quadrisol__100/020_product_details.asp
Lee C
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Apr 23, 2006 - 11:07 am:

Interesting, I went to pubmed and found just a few references to vedaprofen in horses. In is a 2-aryl-propionic acid, such as carprofen and ketoprofen. We have articles on these 2 drugs in the medication section. Though there is a pharmokinetic study I cannot find a published safety or efficacy study but this is a promising class of drugs for horses.
DrO
Member:
Leec

Posted on Sunday, Apr 23, 2006 - 12:13 pm:

DrO, would you like me to see if my vet has some further documented information about it? If she has some 'paperwork', perhaps I can scan the info and e-mail it to you. Let me know, the drug is popular with vets in my area, as it provides great results. If it can benefit others, I would like to help.
Lee C
Member:
Erika

Posted on Sunday, Apr 23, 2006 - 12:49 pm:

Wow, Lee, you've really been through the wringer with your horses. My sympathy.
I know how frustrating your strangles situation is-I sent my filly out for training and the entire barn came down with strangles. It spreads like wildfire. This case came out of nowhere, too. None of the horses arrived sick, so someone must have been a carrier.
But as others have said in this post, it usually is mild and runs it's course. It is a disgusting mess, though!!
My filly ended up staying a lot longer at the trainer than I wanted but I wanted to make sure she wouldn't bring the disease home with her. Like you, I warned all the neighbors what to look out for, and she is in a paddock farthest from any of theirs. Also was told to give her a bath with betadine when she came home in case of any bacteria on her coat. I am watching my three other horses like a hawk for any odd signs and my vet gave me penicillin so I'm ready if any shows up.

Point of all this rambling, like Dr. O says, you usually don't know who the culprit is that is carrying the bacteria longer than normal. But horses, like kids, get sick. Sounds like you are doing a good job playing nurse. I hope this is the end of your tribulations! I also hope that you don't hold it against your new mare. She's probably a nice horse if you liked her enough to buy her. Good luck and fast recovery.
Member:
Leec

Posted on Sunday, Apr 23, 2006 - 3:05 pm:

Hi Erika,
Thank you for your supportive words. My filly is on the mend - still daily nursing to do, but I think we're over the 'hump'. She's eating and drinking better and is perkier, so we're gradually cutting back on the Quadrisol. No, I most definitely do not hold it against my new mare, she is a sweetheart. As I mentioned earlier, my thoughts of returning her were in a 'mental lapse of frustration', but at no point did I feel resentment towards her. As a matter of fact, we are taking precautions in case she has not had it. We have her as far from my filly as possible, as well, are taking measures to try and not 'take it to her'. When my mare came home, she was wearing a blanket, which she had on at the other place. I suppose it's possible the bacteria was on her blanket from another horse (or still living there from herself, if she's had it)- my filly was reaching over the fence the morning after my mare arrived, tugging at the blanket with her mouth...
Lee C
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Apr 24, 2006 - 8:22 am:

That would be great Lee, also I would like to know the cost per dose is. I see you are in Canada so I went to Intervet's US site and it appears this is not available here yet. Anyone else seen this product?
DrO
Member:
Leec

Posted on Monday, Apr 24, 2006 - 4:56 pm:

Hi DrO,
My vet does have additional info on the Quadrisol, but she'll need to dig it up. She's going to call me when she has it all together and I'll go pick it up. It may take her a few days, as she's extra busy right now being that it's foaling/breeding season... I forgot to ask her what she pays for it, but I purchase it from her for $44.55 CAD per 30ml tube.
Lee C
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