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Discussion on Help!!! Misrepresentation and defraud?
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Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2000 - 11:22 am:
In April of 1998 I took my three year old Morgan mare to be trained at a local stable. The trainer was independant and was a seperate entity from the stable owners. After 3 months and a sizable investment, I could ride her and so in early summer of 1998 I brought her home. Before I did get her home however, the stable owner had expressed to me that a young couple who were taking lessons were extremely interested in either leasing the mare or buying her. When I got her home I became quite busy with business travel and feared that the mare would lose the professional training that cost me so much and I pondered the idea of taking her back to the stable for the young couple to use although I wasn't sure that I could part with her-the stable owner suggested that I let the young couple use her for lessons for six months so that I could decide if I wanted to sell her and also to surmise whether the young couple truly desired and could afford to own her. At the time I thought that this was a beneficial arrangement for everyone-the young couple got to use her for lessons, the stable owner had a stall filled, and I did not have to worry that the mare would lose any training. I agreed. And from October 1998 to April 1999 the horse was taken to the stable for lease. I made no monies from this arrangement, but the young couple had to cover the expense of the board, farrier, and vet while in their care. I visited her frequently and each time the stable owner and the young couple assured me that they just loved her and that she was wonderful horse;both in saddle and on the ground. When the time came for a decision to be made in April, the young couple stated their wish to buy her, but they were medical students and just couldn't afford anything but $1000.00 for the horse and that they would have to make payments over the next 7 months. The stable owner expressed to me that they truly had the horse's best interest and that they would give her the best home imaginable. My terms were that I would sell her but only on the condition that they notify me if they could no longer keep her and that I had the option of buying her back for the same price. With an underastanding on both sides, they continued to keep the mare and began making payments. I visited the horse and when I had to contact the interested couple for missing payments, I always asked if they still wanted her and that if they changed their minds, I would pay them for the full amount they had paid me up until that point. Each time they assured me that they loved her and would keep her on a permanent basis. They had every option to give her back to me if they desired and they knew I did not want her sold from person to person or bred indiscriminatly. I finally got my last payment from them in late November of 1999 and after more assurances, I resigned myself that they would give her a good home. I had in my possession the horse's original registration, but had contacted the breed association via internet and letter to get a transfer application. I finally got it in February of 2000. Each time I spoke with the young couple, they never gave me a definite answer as to whose name to put the registration in and so I waited for them to decide. In April of 2000, I received a call from one of the young people-she told me to just sign the papers and send them to her and they would take care of everything. I got everything together and just as I was about to mail out the documents, I received a certified letter from the young couple stating that they could no longer keep her and that I would have to pay them $2500.00 for the mare by May 22, 2000 if I wanted the horse back. They told me that they had at least that amount in training and maintenance (although the horse was fully trained and they were using her for lessons before they even expressed that they did want to buy her). I spent $900.00 on this horse and raised her for three years! I spent over $1000.00 in professional training, and sold her under the understanding that I could have her back for the same price-I gave them time to pay and lost considerable money all under the assurance that they just loved her and would keep her on a permanent basis. Six months after making their last payment they are telling me they want to sell her for an additional $1500.00! And they also stated in their letter that if I did not want her that they needed the paper so that they could find her a good home. I spoke with the trainer (who is no longer working at the stable) and she stated that other people had had trouble at this stable and that she also believed that this situation was probably a scam implemented by the stable owner to take advantage of my compassion for the animal! Help! I just want my horse back-don't want her passed atround or ending up at the sale! I would greatly appreciate any help anyone may offer! Many Thanks, Jen
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Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2000 - 2:35 pm:
With the small amount of money involved here, do you really want to get into legal dealings that will drive you batty? If you want the horse back, try to scrape up the $2500 and pay them what they want. Hopefully learn from this mistake. Right-of-refusal contracts are often not honored. I have to wonder how someone that has to make payments on a $1k horse can possibly afford to keep one.
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Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2000 - 9:47 pm:
Thanks, Marion. I really appreciate your feedback!
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Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 10:56 am:
First, I am not a lawyer. But, what is fair is fair. Is there a written contract?
I would consider fighting fire with fire. You have the papers. Pay them $1000 up front and take possession of the horse. Drag out the payment plan in very small increments.
Then, since they defaulted on their half of the contract, I'd consider defaulting on mine, perhaps with the assistance of a carefully worded letter from my lawyer, or filing in small claims court.
First get the horse. Then sort out the paper.
The really sad thing about this is the total lack of ethics in the matter! Wouldn't you just love one of these characters as your DOCTOR??? Jeesz. Maybe the AMA needs to hear of their lack of integrity ...
Good luck.
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Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 11:17 am:
Jenni-
Buy your horse back, then go see a lawyer. It's the principal and I think money is money, and 2500.00 is alot, especially after what you've already been through. My horse would be the most important thing to me, get her home FIRST. Don't even let on that your upset about the whole thing, I wonder if they had this in mind all the time they had her. After she's safely back with you, get a lawyer. And, get them to sign a bill of sale to you for her for the amount your paying. Good luck!
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Posted on Monday, May 15, 2000 - 5:38 pm:
Thanks, Christine and Stephany! I really appreciate your advice and am going to try to get her back..no matter what the cost! It's so good to know there are compassionate,honorable horse lovers out there like you two...
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2000 - 6:28 am:
Hello Sabian,
It never just the 1000$ up front. Proper care of a horse: food, shelter, fencing, farrier work, routine veterinary expenses, and of course those unexpected veterinary expenses makes keeping a horse an expensive proposition. Take it from someone who has seen both:
1) horses suffer from lack of funds and
2) people suffer economically from trying to take proper care of their horse.
I saw a case two days ago where both the horse and the owner was suffing due to financial constraints and an over extended budget. It is not a matter of fairness, just the reality of the situation.
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2000 - 12:49 pm:
I am one of those people who made payments for 2 and a half months on our second horse which cost $750.00. When I received him, he had not had been shod for over 6 months (feet were in terrible shape), he had not been ridden, and the owners idea of medical treatment for colic was a shot of whiskey. Since I received him, I have him shod religiously, have had him vaccinated, sheath cleaned, teeth floated and have had one emergency call out for colic. I have always paid my vet bill in full at the time of the visit, with the exception of the emergency call. I paid that one within one week of receiving the bill from the vet. We now have 3 horses and all receive the same care.
Although, I am sure there are a lot of people out there who make payments on a horse they cannot afford; there are exception to the rules. I hope anyone selling a horse wouldn't refuse the sale to someone based on payments. Some of us out there are honest and caring horsepeople.
It is a shame what has happened in the case of Jennie & her Morgan mare. What has become of the horse?
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2000 - 10:34 pm:
A friend of mine sold a horse on a payment plan. She was taken out of state. After about half the selling price was paid, the people complained that she wasn't healthy and stopped making payments.
The cost of litigation would be high, and being 3 or 4 states away doesn't help either. So I think my friend sucked up the loss as a bad debt.
Because of this story, if I were selling a horse, I'd expect payment in full. Banks can arrange farm loans for livestock if someone needs it.
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2000 - 9:27 am:
Chris,
I'm really sorry for what happened to your friend. Did your friend surrender the Hauling/Ownership Certificate to the buyers before payment was received in full? How about the registration?
It's too bad the horse moved out of state. Was your friend aware that the horse was going to be moved? Does anyone know what the Dept. of Agriculture/Livestock Board's responsibilities are in cases such as these. If the Hauling Certificate, which is your proof of ownership, is not transferred, can they be called to recover the horse? This probably wouldn't work for a horse out of state, but it may put some pressure on the "new owners" to finish making payments. After all, in Arizona, the legal owner of the horse holds the hauling certificate.
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2000 - 6:00 pm:
Hi Tammy,
I don't know all the details - it happened a while ago. Since the buyer lived out of state, shipping the filly was part of the sale.
Certainly holding a registration until paid in full is a good idea - whether this was the case or not, I can't say.
The main point of my post was that one can get a loan to pay for an animal and it is asking a seller a lot to accept payment terms.
Once the horse leaves my care and supervision, I don't want to own any part of it - I want to be paid in full for the horse. I don't want to trust the care of a horse I have partial interest in to a stranger. There is a wide range of skills and styles in horsekeeping and riding - anyone with some money can buy a horse.
Cheers.
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 20, 2000 - 7:19 pm:
Chris,
Point well taken. If selling one of my horses, I would have to really trust the person before allowing someone to make payments. (Well, that sounds biased, doesn't it?) 
We were lucky when we made payments on the horse that we have. I think, under normal circumstances for the seller, they would have never sold him under the conditions of payments. The sellers were just desperate and needed to get rid of their herd. I don't ever anticipate being able to buy a horse with payment conditions again.
Have a great holiday!
Tammy
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Posted on Friday, Dec 22, 2000 - 8:28 am:
Oh dear, this is a sorry tale. I would certainly aim to get the horse back into my safe posession before I did anything else. Money isn't going to be starved,sold on and/or abused while you are waiting to get it back and it doesn't matter what part of the world you live in but legal things can take forever to settle.
I can't agree with some of the earlier posts about the cost of buying a horse though. If a person cannot rustle up $750 (about GBP500 which would scarcely buy you anything except a foal or a geriatric here in the UK) then they CANNOT POSSIBLY afford to keep the horse to a reasonable standard. I know vets bills, farriers fees, drugs etc vary in price from country to country but the cost of keeping a horse for a year leaves its purchase price standing. If nothing else you probably need to buy stable equipment, the tack, rugs, etc etc and most things you need two of because we all know how horses can trash things effortlessly. I personally pay out more than my horse's purchase price every year on the drugs she needs to keep her alive and safe, and that's on top of her normal monthly bills, and I've no doubt that many people would do the same in my situation because we love our "children".
If the couple who bought this horse were medical students, where on earth were they intending to find the time and money to keep a horse?????? I work for a UK university with a very large medical school and from the second year of their training the students have to work in the hospitals as well as attend their classes. Medical courses are one of the most expensive to enrol on. Sorry, but I don't believe a word of it!!
Good luck in getting the horse safely home and Happy Christmas to you.
Helen
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Posted on Friday, Dec 22, 2000 - 9:54 am:
Helen,
What is your definition of a "reasonable standard"?
Tammy
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2000 - 12:42 am:
Still anxiously waiting for a definition of a "reasonable standard"......
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2000 - 10:17 am:
How about this for a reasonable standard...
I think a reasonable standard is any boarding/keeping situation where you feel your horse has the appropriate care s/he needs. You sleep well at night with no concern for your horse's well-being. You just know the next time you go out to see him/her that s/he will greet you bright-eyed and happy.
Now the specifics of that "reasonable standard" definition are up to each person to flesh out for themselves.
I, myself have had my horse in extremes. Last year this time he was outside in NorthEastern US virtually 24/7. I have pictures of him with snowflakes swirling around him. Yep, he was fat and happy there. Then I decided I wanted something different for him. So, we moved to another barn where he is blanketed, bell-booted, and generally fussed over 24/7. He doesn't go out in bad weather and they put him to bed in his stall every night. I wouldn't be surprised if they read him stories for bedtime, too. And, he likes that just as well.
So, I think it's really more a matter of YOUR reasonable standard. I wouldn't worry what anyone thinks as long as you are happy.
Hope I didn't open Pandora's Box here. Just trying to help.
Joni
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2000 - 10:23 am:
Thank you, Joni.
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2001 - 7:33 am:
Hi Tammy,sorry to keep you wainting-I only have web &email access at work and Xmas and the New Year got in the way a bit
My idea of reasonable standards of care would be horse checked on at least once, preferably twice every day, fed at least two times a day (although not necessarily with anything other than fodder, and then at regular times of the day and not when the owner can be bothered to get out of bed!, is shod on a regular basis and not just when a shoe falls off or the horse goes lame, has sufficient exercise at least 5 times a week if there is no turnout, receives prompt veterinary attention without being made to "wait and see", has clean and sufficient bedding to lie down in comfort, enough fresh water to last 12 hours, and tack and rugs which do not hurt or irritate because the owner can't be bothered to do anything about it, is wormed on a regular basis... need I go on??
Sadly I wasn't able to be with my family over Christmas because there wasn't a single other horse owner on my yard that I could trust to feed my mare her life-saving medication every morning at the right time of day - if they cannot be bothered to get up to see to their own horses needs, they are hardly likely to make the effort for mine are they? No-one turned up much before midday to attend to their poor animals which are normally fed at around 8.30am. If they treated children like this the social services would step in. These are not poor people, just ordinary working folk like me but I'm afraid I was disgusted by their selfishness. I'm afraid that here in the UK alot of horses are kept to standards below those listed above and I could cry buckets for them all. Horses are HARD WORK and require sacrifice from their owners, whether that be time and/or money and its time more would-be owners had this made clear to them.
Oh dear, I think my soap box is about to collapse under my weight! Let us know how you go on with your horse.
Happy New Year to you
Helen
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2001 - 3:55 pm:
Hi Helen,
Well, I must say I do a pretty good job, for making payments on a $750.00 horse. My horses never go more than 8 weeks between farrier visits and they have never thrown a shoe because I've waited too long. My horses have never, NEVER, had saddle sores since I have owned them from improperly maintained or ill fitting tack. Each horse is ridden at least twice a week (this can be improved on). They always have fresh water and visits from me several times a day. I purposely waited on purchasing my first horse until we bought a house with land.
I always consult my vet when I feel something is out of the ordinary. They are up to date on all routine vet care and are wormed regularly on a rotational program. My turnout has a nice layer of bedding for them to lie down if they choose to. I live in Arizona and pasture is unfortunately out of the question. We don't have irrigation and rely on a well for our water.
Now, I don't mean to toot my own horn, but for someone who made payments on one horse, (the other horse I paid cash for), I feel I take good care of my boys. Sure, in an emergency, I may not have the cash on hand to pay my vet if it is a $2000 procedure, but I try to keep my horses healthy and maintained in order to prevent as many problems as possible. I know even with the best care, horses are susceptible to problems, injuries and illnesses.
I'm still learning and I try to do my best for my horses. I know I don't have all the answers. I'm always looking for good advice and positive encouragement. Luckily, I've found both at this site. Everyone has different ideas of what the ideal care for a horse is, but Joni said it best when she said as long as your horse is healthy, bright-eyed and greeting you at the gate, you're doing a good job.
Helen, I hope your mare is doing well. I've been there with having to medicate one of my horses for a few months. It was costly, but well worth the expense.
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