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  Discussion on What are my chances in Court?
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Posted on Friday, Jul 14, 2000 - 7:44 pm:

Hi All,

Approximatley 4 years ago I purchased an unbroke brood mare in foal with live foal guarantee. The mare we were told by the owner had previously had a rectal fistula but she had one foal after this and reassured us all was fine with her. Being new to this, we took her on her word and brought the mare home. A month after being home when she was in her 9th month she aborted, we bred her back, no problem I guess these things can happen. The following year she went into what the vet. had called a false pregnency, he explained that she had taken but lost the embryo early enough but the hormones had already kicked in and kept right on going up to 11 mos. We thought she was carrying. We now call the seller and request our money back and will give back the horse, or we will give the horse back and just apply our prior purchase price to something else she had. To both options she said NO! She said to bring her back again and she would have her Vet. ultrasound her, he did so and breeding again took, she said he had noticed a couple of cysts but said it was nothing to get concerned over. You guessed it...She aborted again in the 7th month. Had an autopsy done on fetus and cultures done looking for the herpes virus and multiple other possibilities, all came back clear. Took her back again to be bred, after being there 2 weeks the lady phoned and told us to come and get the mare as she had been breeding her for 2 weeks and she was still in heat and she had other mares to breed. We went and got her. No baby again. I don't like to have to keep bothering this lady in the first place, but here we are with an 18 year old brood mare we paid 3500.00 for and all we can do with her is love and feed her. Do I have any legal footing to go on in order to take her to court? To get our initial investment back and give her the horse back?

We have been trying to work with her for 4 years, overly patient, I think. Please respond.

Thank you.

Julie

Posted on Monday, Jul 17, 2000 - 11:44 am:

Dear Julie,

Did you have the mare vet-checked prior to purchase? Had she successfully carried to term in the past? Were there any guarantees made regarding the mare's fertility when you bought her (with the exception of the live foal guarantee which would be an agreement with the breeder not the seller)? Since she has not had a live foal, was there any money to be recovered from the breeder? I hate to be a wet blanket, but after two years (when you say you first talked to the seller again), unless you and I had some type of verbal/written agreement, I probably wouldn't give you your money back either. From the seller's perspective, too much can happen in two years (now four) to make that feasible. Unfortunately, there are no guarantees with horses. Even if you do all the right things like buy from a reputable seller, prepurchase exam, etc., things can still go wrong. From what little you've said about the seller, it sounds like she made a good faith sale. Especially since she was willing to have her vet examine the mare (although I probably wouldn't have rebred her until the cysts cleared up).

Anyway, I'm sure others will have different opinions, but I thought I'd stick my two-cents worth in.

Nancy

Posted on Monday, Jul 17, 2000 - 4:43 pm:

Dear Nancy,

Thank you for your input. The breeder and the seller are one in the same. Although I am somewhat a novice at this, I wouldn't expect to sell an unbroke broodmare unless she can produce, it is pretty obvious why the buyer is buying her. To me that is like selling someone a race car that only goes 5 mph. Poor analogy, I know. But I am sure you get my meaning. I have tried to work something out with this person from the start, only to have the door shut in my face everytime. I have spoken to an Attorney about this and they seem to think I would have very good reason and in likely hood win. I would not like to think I have to revert to such circumstances as of all the horse people I have thus far met, have been sincere and above board, but even if it is my own stupidity, I think she saw me coming. Also, the horse is in wonderful condition other then aging 4 years and not being able to have a baby, I have had her tested for everything imaginable and all the Vets. contribute it to the Rectal Fistula problem, which I stated, she assured me would not be a problem, at the time not realizing the impact on a horse with this situation, I took her on her word. Any other thoughts you may have, I would appreciate. Thank you for your honesty.

Sincerely,

Julie

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2000 - 2:25 am:

Dear Julie,

I've been thinking about your situation all day. It looks like you have gotten your original question answered in that you can take the seller to court. I guess what really bothers me is the precedent a situation like yours sets. Using your car example, if the car had run in the past (i.e. the mare had a foal after the rectal fistula problems) and the motor was idling when you came to look at it (the mare was in foal), the seller really made a sale in good faith. The mare had had a foal and I don't see anything in what you wrote which would make me think there was any reason for the seller to think the mare would not continue to be productive. If you as the buyer didn't look under the hood (get a vet check which I assume would have brought the severity of the problem to your attention, since all the vets seem to be pointing their finger at the condition now), I believe the responsibility lies with you not the seller. If the seller had hidden the problem from you in any way, I would feel differently, but from what I read in your first email she didn't. Again with the car, if someone told me the brakes stuck but they didn't think that would be a problem, I would still have them checked before buying the car especially since I don't know anything about cars.
When I sell a horse, I encourage (almost insist) that the buyer has a vet check done (not that I think that is a seller's responsibility to make the buyer have a vet check, but I personally feel better if I know the buyer is walking out with a horse we both know there are no secrets about). When I buy a horse, I always have a vet check done. We recently purchased a 17.2h, 7 year old TB gelding who will be used to teach my husband how to ride English hunters. In the vet check, he showed some navicular deterioration (the popular phrase a few years ago was prenavicular synDrOme). We decided with the light use he will get, we would take the chance and buy him anyway. This is a problem which would have gone completely undetected if we hadn't done the vet check. The seller told me he was absolutely sound and he has been absolutely sound since we bought him; however, with what you want to do, I, as the buyer, would have every right to expect the seller to take this horse back if he becomes unsound. My seller made a good faith sale. If a year from now, he becomes truly navicular, I can't imagine going back to the seller and saying I wanted my money back even if I had been unaware of the problem at time of purchase.
Also, even though I'm sure you have taken excellent care of your mare, there is still a huge difference between a 14 and an 18 year old broodmare. While I am terribly sorry you made a purchase which turned out to be a mistake, I can't help but hope you wouldn't win a case in court. It would be a terrible precedent for anyone trying to sell a horse especially with the length of time we're talking about here. I wish you all the luck with your next horse purchase.

Nancy

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2000 - 9:18 am:

You wouldn't believe how many older brood mares suddenly go on the market because something has gone wrong and they can't be bred any more. If this mare is 18 and unbroken she has probably spent her life just being a baby machine. Unfortunately unless there is an obvious problem or the pre-purchase vetting picks something up you could easily buy such a mare - the seller has lots of photos of the previous babies to show you so leading you into a false state of security. Then its your word against the sellers unfortunately. Remember its Caveat Emptor (Let the Buyer Beware) where horses are concerned.

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2000 - 11:17 am:

Vet checks have saved me far more money than they've ever cost. I wouldn't buy ANY horse, or even accept a free horse, without one. If a horse has a long-term but treatable problem, I want to be able to budget for it's care (or if that care is more than I care to spend, I want to pass on the horse before I get attached it and have to make a painful decision). If it has a problem that might affect it's use, I want to know about that, too.

I bought a 2 year old that looked great and everyone thought I was crazy to do full xrays, but they found a tiny bone chip in the fetlock. My vet said the worst case scenario was that at some point she would need arthroscopic surgery to remove it (but that it might never cause a problem). The seller DrOpped the price by half the cost of the surgery, figuring we would split the risk.

I bought a 10 year old States Premium imported German Oldenburg (imported by someone else), asking price was $25K. We xrayed her, and found fetlock arthritis (she was started way too young while in Germany) which could limit her useful lifespan as a hunter, which is what we were purchasing her for. But because she had a terrific pedigree and was DrOp-dead gorgeous, we offered half the sales price since we could use her as a broodmare if the arthritis became limiting. The sellers accepted. She washed out as a hunter quickly, but has become a fabulous dressage horse for me that shows every likelihood of getting to PSG or higher.

Prepurchase exams aren't foolproof, though--I bought an 18 year old schoolmistress this year who passed with flying colors, including the xrays and flexion tests. 2 months later she was dead lame. She was worth doing everything to see if we could fix the problem, so we did arthroscopy and found she had paper-thin cartilage in her fetlock that had worn through in one spot. The referral vets said that it was the type of thing that would be completely asymptomatic until boom, it happened. Fortunately for me, she's a lovely lovely horse, also with an excellent pedigree, and she was not that expensive. She's now living out her life as a broodmare and is in foal. With weekly Adequan, we can keep her comfortable though she always has a bit of a limp.

Buying a horse is ALWAYS a risky proposition, just like Nancy's wonderful analogy to buying a used car. The best thing you can do to protect yourself is get a vet check.

Posted on Tuesday, Jul 18, 2000 - 11:40 am:

Thank you all for the wonderful input, it helps to see things in a different light. When a person feels had, they go on the defensive right away I beleive, and now that you have helped me to take the blinders off, I understand both sides.
Again, Thank you for your wisdom. I truely appreciate it.

Sincerely,


Julie
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