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  Discussion on A Question for Professional Trainers
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Member:
Starda01

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 11:27 pm:

Recently, a trainer I know was injured by a client's horse as she was trying to hose it down at a horse show. The horse just knocked her over and then proceeded to walk over her and then backed up over her. She sustained scrapes, cuts and bruises, fortunately nothing broken but bad enough to send her to a hospital emergency room.

Now, of course, the trainer is advising her client to get rid of this horse because its not suitable for the client's child as its too green and doesn't have much common sense. The client, however, is having a hard time with making that decision. The trainer feels that the client has shown real disregard for her because the client is demurring on moving the horse along. The trainer also feels that the client should pay some of the hospital bills.

Now, my question is this; If you are a professional trainer, this is your job, and it brings with it a certain amount of inherent risk. Shouldn't it be the trainer's responsibility to maintain her own insurance? Is it hard to find insurance for professional horse trainers? And what is the client's responsibilty toward the trainer in this situation?

I am neither the client nor the trainer, this is simply a situation that came up with other persons, and I am curious as to what some of you would have to say.

Sara
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Aug 29, 2006 - 11:48 pm:

It is always good to have liability insurance on your personal horses, just in case they cause damage to a person or property . . . but if someone is a trainer, he/she should have health insurance . . . but it isn't cheap . . . and unless you are doing enough business, it might not be worth it to have the insurance. Sometimes, it's cheaper to just pay $25 a month toward the doctor/hospital bills than to pay for insurance (THAT may get a reaction from any members who are in insurance sales )
There have been many cases of a trainer telling a client to get a different horse . . . and the client can refuse to take the trainer's advice . . . but the client should probably look for a different trainer . . . for the sakes of everyone involved, including the horse.
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 1:01 am:

Sara, i'm not a professional trainer, (but i did stay at a holiday inn last night, grin)...

seriously. our state has rules on this. I do believe, or it was where i lived, but all trainers had to show proof of certification and all had to carry some kind of personal liability insurance. not to mention those darn yellow signs everywhere that once you walk on to whatever property, it explains that any who walk on understand those risks, etc.. Chapter law 93-169 is the equine zero liability law....(Under Florida law, an equine activity sponsor or equine professional is not liable for an injury to, or the death of, a participant in equine activities resulting from the inherent risks of equine activities. Chapter 93 - 169. Laws of Florida.)

Here is the exact verbage:
General provisions. – Except as provided in s.
773.03, an equine activity sponsor, an equine professional,
or any other person, which shall include a corporation or
partnership, shall not be liable for an injury to or the death
of a participant resulting from the inherent risks of equine
activities and, except as provided in s. 773.03, no
participant nor any participant’s representative shall have
any claim against or recover from any equine activity
sponsor, equine professional, or any other person for injury,
loss, damage, or death of the participant resulting from any
of the inherent risks of equine activities.

here is a ruling on this same kind of thing. let me know if you can't access it. I have the pdf file...

https://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:-X07ZXuI3oQJ:opinions.1dca.org/written/opin ions2004/7-20-04/03-5032.pdf+chapter+law+93-169,+florida&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd= 9&client=firefox-a


So the question is where was she hurt? And what are their policies? Was she hurt on the owners property? or a showground? Who was in charge of the horse at the time of injury? trainer or owner? Was owner even there? has owner ever gotten anything signed by or from the trainer? Is she a licensed trainer? If she is in the state of florida than i'm sure she is well aware of the laws. When you go to a show, they make you sign all sorts of fun little things. Anything in there that says this is a risky thing (yada, yada) and who signed it the trainer or owner? This might be a way to side step the trainers backlash...
Member:
Canter

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 8:21 am:

I would imagine that the laws are so different from state to state that only a local lawyer can correctly answer the questions.

My former trainer was badly hurt while helping a client teach a horse to load. The horse went up in the air and when he came down, clipped her in the head with a hoof, narrowly missing her eye. She was pretty beat up. However, she accepted the injuries as an unfortunate risk of the job and accepted the fact that horses will be horses and can be dangerous. She never went after the horses owner legally nor did she advise the owner to sell the horse because he was "unsuitable" - although this may very well be the case in Sara's post.

I would think that any professional that does not maintain their own insurance is playing Russian Roulette with their health and their business. I know it's expensive, but so is losing your farm/home/business...etc because you are disabled and/or cannot afford to pay bills.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 9:18 am:

Many of the breed associations, as well as USEF (don't they?) have insurance available for their members at a reasonable cost. Obtaining it privately can be very expensive and some companies won't sell it at all if you have more than x number of horses or have any commercial activity at all.

IMO, the trainer should have health insurance and liability. EVERYONE should have liability insurance in this day and age, at least in the US. Health insurance in very expensive, however, and I know a lot of people that don't have it.
Member:
Terrilyn

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 9:25 am:

Interesting situation since the party who was injured in this incident is not the one we normally think of as having the greater risk of injury. We owners are always the ones signing waivers...I've never asked my trainer to sign one!

Most horse owners don't carry a liability policy unless they are boarding horses on their property or are giving lessons...not that it isn't a good idea!

It's a given that training is dangerous...if it were easy to break babies or work with green horses, I guess we'd all be doing it by ourselves. I, like everyone else probably, assume that our trainer has the proper health coverage for herself that would cover injuries incurred on the job. In my view, that is her responsibility, as is the assumed risk. Ask your trainer sometime, or any horse professional, to list the injuries they've sustained over the years. They'll probably ask you how much time you have.

If, however, she is injured while training my horse due to obvious neglect on my part--I would think she would have grounds to sue me. And that is REGARDLESS of the zero liability law jojo mentions above (we have the same law in Virginia). Any lawyer will tell you that law will not protect you from being sued, and sued successfully, by the injured party.

There is a ton of info about equine laws, liability, the particulars for each state, etc., etc., if you do a web search. In my opinion, it is the trainer's responsibility to be properly insured for just this kind of incident as it is never a matter of "if" but "when."
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 9:26 am:

Here's another question for the professionals out there; kind of the reverse side of the coin to Sara T.'s question.

We have had two occasions where we have had a horse seriously injured at a trainer's. Since I wasn't present I don't know if the accidents were due to negligence or not, although it is easy to say that they were. However, I know that horses are horses and sometimes seem bent on injuring themselves.

How much liability does the trainer have to the owner when a horse is seriously injured? In one case the horse recovered fully, although it took a year and lots of money for vet bills. The other injury was recent and it's too soon to tell the outcome.
Member:
Mzollars

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 9:43 am:

Sorry to sway from the topic but........Terri, what part of Virginia are you from. Just moved to the southwest part of the state from PA.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 10:01 am:

We have liability on our own horses through our state horse council. It is pretty basic, and covers our horses wherever they are. If a trainer has a horse boarded with her, she should have the CARE, CUSTODY, and CONTROL coverage that will provide for the replacement cost of the horse should the horse be injured or die while under her training.
Anyone who works at a hazardous job should have medical coverage, but unless the income from the work is enough, the medical coverage may be difficult to afford.
Julie Fershtman's books: EQUINE LAW and HORSE SENSE and MORE EQINE LAW and HORSE SENSE are invaluable resources. I believe Julie is in Michigan. I have called her before and talked with her, and she was very helpful when I had questions pertaining to insurance at the ranch in California. I don't know if it has changed since her last book was published, but according to the book, only 43 of the 50 states have Equine Inherent Risk Laws, and Terri is correct, that they don't protect an equine professional from being sued . . . especially if the plaintiff can prove negligence . . . and that extends to poorly written waivers, unapproved riding helmets, poor fencing, unsafe tack, unsafe horse handling, bad teaching tips, etc.
I was also told that when a personal injury occurs, even though the injured person has signed a waiver and may have promised on a stack of Bibles to never sue, if the injury is severe, the parties may end up in court just because of the need to recoup medical expenses for the injured person . . .
There's much more that can be said here, and I recommend Julie's books. I believe the Certified Horsemanship Association has them for sale: www.cha-ahse.org or I'm sure they can be gotten through Amazon.com
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 10:05 am:

Oh, and P.S. . . . If you live in one of the states that doesn't have an Equine Inherent Risk Law, your state Horse Council would probably appreciate any help you can give through lobbying for one.
In CA, the state horse council has tried several times to get an inherent risk law passed . . . They have spent loads of money, had expert testimonies, and spent loads of time educating the legislators and horse owners about the need for such a law. In each case, (I was told by the director of the horse council) the Trial Lawyers' Association was the strongest lobby AGAINST such a law.
More legal advice, waivers, agreements, etc., can be obtained from Rachel McCart, Esq. of EQUINE LEGAL SOLUTIONS.
Member:
Green007

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 10:07 am:

Finally! A question I feel overqualified to answer as I was a full time horse trainer in my previous life and am now an employee benefits consultant with a focus on medical coverage!

Here is my 2 cents, with the general answer being that there are no easy answers.

1) There is an inherent risk when working with or riding horses, whether you are a pro trainer or not.

2) As a pro trainer, it could be argued in a court of law that this person has an understanding of this risk that goes beyond the "common man."

3) Health insurance is outrageously expensive, especially in the individual/private market where insurance companies have a right to exclude pre-existing conditions, the right to charge you more money for your pre-existing conditions, or even to completely deny you coverage if you have pre-existing conditions or if you engage in high risk activities, which may include horse training.

4) Liability insurance protects trainers from being sued themselves in the event a student or horse under their care is seriously hurt. A trainers liability policy may pay little or nothing toward a trainer's own medical bills.

5) Horse training doesn't pay very much. Most full time horse trainers can't afford personal medical insurance for themselves, and many don't have any unless they are married to someone who has access to coverage and can sign them up as a qualified dependent spouse through their spouse's employer benefits (this doesn't always work with domestic partners, BTW, as many state laws do not recognize domestic partners as legally eligible for benefits due to the stringent IRS definition of "dependent spouse").

6) $25 is not how much it costs to go to a Drs office. That is a typical copay that insured people have gotten used to paying, and is one of the main reasons why employers are implementing Consumer Driven plans that share more expenses and price shopping tools with the end user. It is such a big deal these days, even Medicare is getting into the act. Run a search on Aetnas website for the cost of basic services in your area, and you will be surprised. It actually costs several hundred dollars for a basic "wellness visit," and that is if no further diagnostics or lab tests are needed. Think for a moment how much you pay your vets for horses, dogs and cats. People cost more.

7) Emergency room visits cost more than Dr visits. Even a simple ER visit can go into the thousands because you are paying a premium for the round the clock access to care.

8) The biggest risk for the uninsured isn't the occasional broken arm or leg, though that can cost thousands. The biggest risk is the larger accident. Forget horses for a minute. I have seen car accident claims that go into the millions for just one person. Not once or twice as a freak accident. I see this regularly.

Bottom line is, people are attracted to the horse business because they love horses. When they find out how much the horse business pays, they cut corners in their personal lives (though they will DrOp $10,000 for a nice prospect and $500 for a weekend horse show and often insure their better horses - think of that one for a minute). One corner that is often cut if a full time trainer doesn't have access to coverage through a spouse is going uncovered. They think to themselves - I am young and healthy! I never have to go to the Dr.! I have nothing to worry about! Then they break a bone and realize that they will end up paying anyway, all at once, without the tax advantages of medical coverage.

I see it as an industry wide problem and I don't know what the answer is, because insurance IS expensive, and there are very few subsidized medical plans in the horse world since most trainers are self employed. Creating an association plan for riders and trainers sounds great on paper but wouldn't hold up over the long haul. Insurance rates are based on claims experience and premium/claims loss ratios from one year to the next. Forget about insurance company profits for a minute. If raw claims are costing an insurance company $13,000 per person per year, before profits, then that is the minimum amount an insurance carrier would need to charge per person per year to keep the plan from going bankrupt. But what horse trainer out there can afford to spend over $1000 per month on medical insurance? I couldn't do that now on my current salary, and I am earning double what earned as a full time horse trainer, before overhead expenses (its the overhead costs in the horse business that kill you - gross salary can be huge if you are top notch, but the net salary is something else again).

All I have to say is, God Bless full time horse trainers. They risk life and limb to fix other people's problems, put their horses needs well above their own, get frequent complaints about their prices and are constantly questioned and challenged on their methods all along the way. You have to really love horses a LOT to be able to do that!

That said, this person who wants clients to pay her money for horse hosing injuries has no basis that would hold up in court with most juries. She needs to decide at this point whether the horse business is the right industry for her or not.
Member:
Terrilyn

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 10:09 am:

Hi Megan--I'm in southeast Virginia in Gloucester County, on the Chesapeake Bay. We're spitting distance to Yorktown, about 30 minutes from Williamsburg and Newport News, and an hour or so east of Richmond. Where are you?

Sara--last year I left a horse for 60 days of training with a trainer near me. I signed a release that stated he was not liable for any injury to the horse, vet bills, etc., while at his facility. Our horse did pick up a very nasty upper respiratory illness while there, and when I brought him home he was very sick. It took almost a month for him to shed the cough and runny nose and get completely back to good health. This trainer usually has over 20 horses stabled there at one time...I understand that these things happen.

In my view, it doesn't matter how many waivers or legal documents I sign that are designed to protect the horse practitioner. If he is neglectful/harmful in training practices,the upkeep of the facility, equipment, etc., I'm taking that person to court. If I feel like he's made more than a good faith effort to do things right and the injury stems from something completely unanticipated, I have to accept that horses get hurt.... a lot! Courts will view it that way too. A well-run facility that has made every effort to cover itself legally and do things by the book will come out ahead in most court proceedings. Good faith effort and a liability policy counts for quite a bit.
Member:
Green007

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 10:42 am:

PS - I just ran a search under personal accident insurance for horse trainers, and it looks like there are at least some plans (although with limited scope) in countries like Australia and Great Britain. What I just said applies to the typical American trainer.
Member:
Green007

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 10:51 am:

Below is a summary of the personal accident insurance offered by USEF, cut and pasted directly from the Equisure website. The limits are noted at $20,000-$35,000 and ONLY during horse related activities. It doesn't take much to hit that limit, trust me. And it does nothing for a mean run in with food poisoning.

Everything else under the USEF plan protects you as a third party in a lawsuit in the event someone sues you.

Personal Accident Insurance:
Our personal accident policy insures the member for death or permanent disability resulting from an accident anywhere in the world at the following benefit levels:

Up to $35,000 at a USEF-sanctioned event,

Up to $20,000 while insured is engaged in any horse-related activity worldwide, and

Accidental Death Benefit limited to $3,750 for insured persons under the age of 18.
Member:
Mzollars

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 10:52 am:

Terri, I'm in the Southwest in Pulaski County. Dublin is the name of the town and it is a long way from you! I was hoping to find someone near to me as I moved here all by myself!
Member:
Green007

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 10:55 am:

Actually, I just re-read - this is a "permanent disability" policy. This means it won't cover any medical bills unless you are pretty much proven to be wheelchair bound for the rest of your days. And for that, you get $35,000 max!
Member:
Starda01

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 11:13 am:

WoW! Hot topic, and rightfully so. Great responses everyone.

Off Topic: Terri- My mother and brother both live in Williamsburg, VA. I love the area.

On Topic: We are in Florida, but I know of no laws here that make licensing a must for trainers of show horses. Of race horses, yes. But most people just set themselves up.

Holly Wood - I totally agree with you, that if the owner wants to keep this horse, she needs another trainer. Best for all involved.

JoJo - I don't know what waivers were signed regarding this animal's training. The trainer is knowledgeable about equine laws. The horse is boarded with the trainer, cared for by the trainer, and under her control. She is a very good trainer, and is probably right as to the nature of the horse's suitability. However, I doubt any court would uphold her suing the owner to recover hospital costs, because she above all would have appreciated the inherent risk. I think alot of what's going on is emotional, because she was frightened about losing her livelihood due to injuries.

Thanks for that link, it was very good info regarding the law and its loopholes.

The whole insurance industry is in crisis from my point of view. I do know that the trainer in question does not have insurance, she's said she couldn't find it. Its definitely one of the things that needs to be addressed by horse professionals, to protect themselves and their livelihoods.

I agree, the costs of horse ownership, whether showing, racing or pleasure, is about prohibitive, at least in our neck of the woods.

Sara
Member:
Starda01

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 11:20 am:

Formatting ErrorThe formatting code newurl requires 2 argument(s); you provided only 1 argument(s).
Member:
Starda01

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 11:25 am:

OOps! I meant to inject a bit of humor into this discussion. This is from the National Horseman's Benevolent Protection Association's site.
Member:
Green007

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 30, 2006 - 1:39 pm:

By the way, Sara, if the trainer has internet access there are many places to get individual quotes. All she would have to do is type "medical insurance in Florida" and an enormous number of sites popped up in my browser. A very informative site is www.floridahealthinsurance.com.

If she choses a plan with an insanely high deductible and she is under the age of 40, she may even be able to find an extremely affordable plan.

Some places I would check if I were her are Fortis (now Assurant), Golden Rule, Aetna and Blue Cross Blue Sheild of Florida.

If I ever got into horses full time again, I would buy a High Deductible Health Plan that was HSA qualified and save tax free money in my HSA account to budget for the future or to use for first dollar claims to meet the annual deductible. That way, if I got hurt it would still be painful financially for an $800 claim, but I would not be risking personal bankruptcy over a larger claim just for the luxury of being in the horse business.

Actually, if I could not afford medical insurance, I would not go into the horse business in the first place.

Here are some helpful websites. Please forward these sites to this trainer for future reference. She may surprise herself at what she can afford if she sets the deductibles high enough. If she sets up an HSA alongside an HDHP, she can even save money for future medical needs.

www.ehealthinsurance.com

www.hsafinder.com

www.bcbsfl.com

www.assuranthealth.com

www.goldenrule.com
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 10:04 am:

Pay through the nose for insurance and consider ourselves lucky if we never have to use it! Just one of those things, like taxes, you gotta succumb to I guess. It is disheartening though, that when you do have to use it somehow that service isn't covered.

Debbie, I've always wondered about getting a group/association together for independent workers of various industries.

I read recently that a couple retiring today at age 65 and living to average life expectancy can expect to pay almost $300k for health care premiums and expenses during retirement, and that's if they're healthy! Where's that expense in the retirement plan?!?
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 10:38 am:

There is an association for the self employed, NASE. They used to offer a good insurance plan, pretty reasonably. But, I don't know if they cover horse related stuff. We switched to a plan with our local farm bureau. That might also be an option.
Member:
Green007

Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 11:01 am:

Hi cp,

The trouble is that insurance companies are not in business to go bankrupt. There are industry codes out there that the insurance company actuaries use to determine risk. These are called SIC codes or NAICS codes (Standard Industrial Classification and North American Industry Classification System, respectively). They use the SIC codes to determine how risky a population is and come up with medical, life and disability premium rates accordingly. A mining company, for example, will be charged a much higher short term disability rate than a law firm would be charged due to increased risk exposure of a mining company. An association plan for horse trainers would be considered a higher risk then an association plan for a group of say, administrative assistants who work in air conditioned offices and don't have to lift anything over 50 pounds.

Association plans have been tried in the past and tend to go bankrupt, especially when they take on high risk groups. There is something in insurance lingo called a "death spiral." What happens is, 90% of the claims costs are generated by 10% of the population (this is the case with all insured groups, including your employer's group if you are in one, which is why your rates keep going up every year even though you yourself may have had no claims). The 90% of the population who are not generating any claims are subsidizing the 10% who are generating the claims and making the premiums go up every year.

If you are a fit, healthy, non-smoking 25 year old working in a low risk occupation, you will get preferred rates on the open market. You may be able to find an individual plan for as little as $50 a month. If you find such a plan, why on earth would you remain in an association plan that is charging you $500 per month due to the needs of the 10% of your group who are generating all the claims? You wouldn't stay on that plan, so you get out of the plan and enjoy your preferred rate.

Meanwhile, back in the association plan, we have all the people who stay in the plan, which are the 10% who are generating all the claims, and a handful of healthy people who were too lazy to price shop. Every year when the rates increase, another segment of the healthy population jumps ship, leaving only the "sickies" in the plan. Without the healthy people subsidizing the high claimants on the plan, the plan either gets so expensive it is unsustainable for the high claimant, or it goes bankrupt.

That is why so many states have what are called "high risk pool" plans. These plans are for people who are unable to secure insurance in the open market. These are tax funded plans, which means they expect you to get off the plans within 3 years in most states. The general idea is that if you have medical issues that prevent you from obtaining coverage in the open market, you can do one of three things at the end of 3 years.

1) get a job with an employer who offers health benefits.
2) marry someone who has a job with an employer who offers health benefits.
3) return to the individual market and buy coverage for yourself. Federal HIPAA laws require an insurance company to sell you coverage if you have had at least 18 consecutive months of coverage with another carrier. The risk pools are considered to be a carrier in the HIPAA regs. This helps the otherwise uninsurable to become insured.

As far as $300k for health care premiums at retirement, that is true! It is in addition to the retirement plan, which should be paying for your housing, car, food, and other expense. That figure doesn't include the cost of custodial, or Long Term Care, which is nursing care. That is a whole other story.

It is scary and depressing, I agree. But it is also why I am, at age 37, socking away 20% of my income into my 401k. It hurts to do that. I could afford to ride and show a nice horse if I didn't do that. But it is important, so I do it anyway.
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 11:32 am:

Yikes, all you never wanted to know about the insurance industry but had to ask. Sounds like another government-type racket. I stash the max in my 401k too, and again can't complain about anything as long as I'm healthy!
Member:
Green007

Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 12:11 pm:

Yes, working in the employee benefits industry can give you ulcers at night, especially when you are forced to look at the number projections that I see every day.

That's ok though. There are plenty of good horses, good people and good wines out there to help keep things in perspective!
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 1:04 pm:

Exactly!
Member:
Erika

Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 11:06 pm:

Thanks, Debbie. Great info.
Erika
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