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Discussion on PMU horses
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 8:39 am:
Starting this new thread because we got onto the topic from another one.
Some have asked about the state of the pregnant mare urine-collection industry (PMU) and the state of the farms and horses involved.
In the past there have been many news articles about "throwaways" resulting from these farms. When the news came out that Premarine was not the fountain of youth, there was a glut of poor quality horses on the market, and up for adoption. Rescue groups and animal rights activists were outraged.
I believe that the industry has changed and is changing still. Many of the PMU farms have discovered that now that demand is down, they need a secondary income to the PMU. Many have started breeding a higher quality of horse so that the offspring are marketable in their own right. A mare that is carrying a quality foal still produces just as much urine as a mare with a rank foal.
Last year at the Rutgers University/Cook College Young Horse Program auction, a yearling PMU colt went for $11,000. The average price was around $3,000 to $4,000. Pretty good prices for yearlings in most markets.
Can-Am is one group, NAERIC is another, that is pushing for quality breeding in the PMU industry.
I have personally owned a PMU foal and she turned out to be a wonderful horse that had people vying for her at sale time.
I'm sure that not all PMU producers have caught on to this trend. But at least there is a move in the right direction that produces a marketable by-product with a chance at a good life.
Okay, now let 'er rip...
Erika
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 9:10 am:
HA, Erika you beat me over here!! If I wouldn't of been searching for my daughter,who was searching for a stray cat......
O.K. what I found last night doing a quick search was that about 1/3 of the mares are no longer needed. Not sure what year it was, think 2003, that the makers of Premarin changed their formula to one that used less mares urine/estrogen and more plant based derivatives.
If it was 3 years ago since the change, I think more pressure is needed to remind them to keep on changing the formula and eliminate the need for useing the mares.
I never knew the conditions in which these horses were kept until I searched around last night. An animal as intelligent, beautiful and people oriented as our beloved equine friends....it just ripped a hole in my heart.
I am a softy, I don't even like the thought of chickens in cages their whole lives producing eggs.....
I'd like to see the people that keep these mares confined; they themselves be kept to a small area, only big enough to stand up in, never lay down, and have tubes connected to them to collect their bodily wastes!!! Oh, and water twice a day max, while being fed constantly to keep them fat for slaughter.
The only answer is public awareness, and the total elimination of PMU producers. As long as there is a need for the product, we will always have unscrupulous folks who don't give a rats butt about the condition the mares are kept in, or if the foals live or die.
I know we can't change the world, but we can have a huge effect the world with our choices.
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 9:49 am:
I did a full on educational assualt on my mother a few years back. She takes a premarin daily. And i just slammed her with info. How she could be requesting a synthetic. And the advances in science are becoming better, how if she just discussed this with her doctor, and try the synthetics, it could be a small victory. One person at a time, yada, yada...
She did. Didn't tell me either. Pushed her doctor to try the change. And she got a bit sick. not sure the whole story, but in the end the body was more apt to accept what she had been doing than with the newer product. And doctor immediately put her back on premarin....
So... I tried but when someones life is at stake, the reality is what it is...
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 9:50 am:
Careful, Angie, believe it or not they are not all like that. Keep researching and you will find some are truly humane operations.
Rod Hyatt of North Dakota is one that Rutgers uses as a source of young horses. I have spoken at length with Dr. Sarah Ralston who runs the Equine Science program there that uses the foals.
Their mares are out all spring and summer in huge pastures with a stallion and their foals until the foals are weaned.
Winters are rough, and most horses are kept inside, PMU or not. Collection funnels hang behind the mares, and they don't have a LOT of room, but they are able to lie down, and they are well fed for the foals' sake since these are pretty valuable commodities in their own right.
Yes, it used to be a different industry where the horses were secondary, but I think you will find through the organizations above that there are many humane breeders who also produce PMU.
Surely there are still some bad apples, but I doubt if they will prosper long. I certainly hope not! Demand is down for PMU and the horses themselves are now much more important than the throwaways of the past.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 4:49 pm:
O.K., Erika, if they can collect urine from these mares while they live "normal" lives, AND the foals are all wanted babies, not just slaughter animals....
But really, do you want to ingest something that started out as horse pee?
With all the technological scientific advances out there, we are depending on pee from horses to get estrogen?? Sorry, don't buy it.
But what will be, will be, I won't loose sleep over it.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 5:25 pm:
Angie, how many times have you had a post-trail ride tailgate party after a loooooooooooooooooong day and eaten sandwiches and cheese and veggie dip without even washing your hands first, and you know EXACTLY where your hands have been.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 6:04 pm:
No Angie, I agree, they aren't all living the life of reilly, too bad. But I just wanted to point out the direction that some of the more conscientious farmers are taking.
I wouldn't take the premarin myself, anyway.
I'm a little sensitive because my beautiful PMU was often derided for her lowly background and she was twice the horse that the critics were usually mounted on. You know, "I can call my kid ugly, but you...." !
And yes, Debbie, I try not to think of where those post ride hand stains come from while I eat from them either.
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 7:55 pm:
Wow, angie, erika.. i hope you never need it. Or get a hysterectomy, uterine diseases, have cancer or any of the many things that premarin is used for. Sometimes the body only accepts what it accepts. Will you decline premarin? There are people out there that without it wouldn't live very long.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 11:05 pm:
No, Jojo, I won't decline it if I need it. Just lucky so far, I guess.
It's all a matter of perspective, isn't it?
I just wanted to add another view of the industry that doesn't get the headlines.
Erika
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 31, 2006 - 11:34 pm:
I think perspective here is the wrong word. Maybe more like choice. Some have the choice, some don't. Because of that, sadly there will always be a market for premarin. thus pmu horses.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 7:40 am:
Periodically AAEP performs inspections of both US and Canadian PMU operations and presents reports at the annual meetings. Overall they have given a thumbs up to the industry. Yes there have been exceptions but it is possible and for the most part is done in a humane manner.
We need to be sure we stay focused on both protecting horses so that they are treated humanely while preserving your right to own and care for horses. Without diligence this may become harder than you would think possible.
Concerning the consuming urine comment the first thought I had was where has our drinking water been? Whether you buy the purest snow melt from the highest mountain or get it from the tap many of those of the water molecules have definitely been, shall we say, processed through a biological system and some in ways much less sanitary than urine.
 DrO
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Member:
Tinaw40
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 8:14 am:
I have a PMU yearling and recently sold a PMU that I had since 5 months old. Just like everything and everyone, there are good and bad farms. My VET has been going into Canada every year to purchase PMU foals for her clients. The farm she goes to is Willows Ranch and she is pleased with how they care for the mares, stallions and foals. She has seen worse environments for horses with private owners. Several of the PMU farms have closed down due to the tighter standards placed on them by the industry and the makers of Premarin (can't remember their names). Not all PMU foals are of good quality and as with any foal, some are born crooked, etc. But, you CAN find quality foals with good bloodlines at these PMU auctions. My PMU QH blue roan yearling is as smart as they come. He learns super quick and he adores people.
I had a hysterectomy is 1998 and my doc just couldn't understand why I would refuse to take the natural product (Premarin) over a synthetic one no matter how long we debated the issue. We finally agreed for me to take the synthetic drug and if it didn't work, I would take the Premarin. The synthetic worked like a charm, thank god! I have known a few people who couldn't take anything but the Premarin though and by all means they should. Sometimes, you just don't have a choice.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 8:22 am:
Ah, yes, we are also drinking filtered dinosaur pee, though it has been filtered a few more times, LOL!!!
jojo, I did have a hysterectomy, and maybe I am lucky, but I didn't feel any different on or off HRT, and I was getting them from a clinic that dealt only in natural, plant, compounded hormones.
I don't mean to imply that any one who needs Premarin is doing something wrong. If it gives you your life back, and keeps you going, by all means use it.
I just got worked up over the pictures and descriptions. Even if these horses are allowed to be horses, we still have the problem of extra foals being born. Just like puppy mills IMO.
But as I said, what will be, will be.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 8:47 am:
Tina,
After seeing your post, I wanted to point out something I don't think we are getting here.
If you go to a doctor who specializes in "natural" ways, and one who works with a compounding pharmacy, the doseages can be tweaked to benefit anyone. This can only be done after saliva testing which is the only way to accurately test your hormones. Blood work doesn't tell the whole story.
I am not 100% sure, but I am pretty darn sure these are not SYNTHETIC hormones.
And a woman's body will respond differently to synthetic hormones vs plant hormones vs Premarin hormones.
IF you are going to your regular ol' gynocologist, I doubt you are getting saliva testing done, or getting natural hormones. As I understand it, the molecules are smaller, and a woman's body can use the hormone more effeciently.
I am not saying that there still won't be ladies who only respond to Premarin. What I am trying to get across is be aware of all the options.
And don't expect your regular doc to know the difference. He/she most likely will send you off with a prescription for man made synthetic hormones.
Also, there is the doseage question. Do you take the amount(s) based on the national average guidelines, or whatever, or do you take the "feel good" amounts. There is a big difference.
It's been a few years since I was in the middle of this myself, but I think I am remembering it correctly.
As always, information is the key.
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 9:49 am:
Hello All
I've been reading everyone's posts, and just have to reiterate what has been said already cc PMU horses and foals... no matter how "humanely" these PMU horses are kept in a small cubicle with a catheter coming out of their vulva, and no matter how well some of these mares are bred, there is always the flood of young horses on the market. I cannot even believe that the treatment of PMU horses and constant flood of these foals on the market, could even be thought of as the same as show horses or race horses... yes, there are show and race horses treated badly too, but there are consequences set up for trying to keep this from happening, whereas the PMU farms are legit! Hmmm, reminds me of another set of posts about the $$$ .
And, even tho I do not wash my hands regularly, I still would not knowingly drink horse pee. Come on. And, I would never eat my Cocker Spaniel, no matter how hungry I was, OKAY, I might if we were snowbound on the mountain with only him to eat and he was already dead.
I don't think any of us, pro PMU or con PMU would ever want any of our sisters with Cancer or even the dreaded Menopause symptoms to feel guilty about their choices, BUT , I BELIEVE that modern research and technology can and will erase the "need" for these PMU Farms. The production of Pregnant Mare Urine IS NOT THE BEST THING FOR THE HORSES INVOLVED, and surely we realize that, as long as folks are willing to accept the current drug as acceptable and even preferable, then the need for these large drug companies who profit from the sale of Premarin, research will be negated. WOMEN NEED TO BE AWARE of their choices and demand other choices so that, one day, PMU farms will be obsolete. Surely, none of us would make the choice for Pregnant Mare Urine, if we did not have to! The sales of Premarin have DrOpped significantly in the last ten years as women became aware of what they were being prescribed. Many PMU farms have had to close, so at least, some horses will never have to be "born to" this kind of treatment! At least there are fewer farms and "more humane" farms , as jo jo spoke of. I hope the future holds the absence of these farms altogether. I have to say, jojo, that you should be proud of your PMU horse, but I would be careful, as a horse person, not to "support" the industry as a whole, just the part you have had in it!
Nancy
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 10:25 am:
Nancy, I agree wholeheartedly about the glut of horses on the market. Can't blame it all on PMU though. I feel just as strongly about anyone who breeds poor quality horses without intending to keep them for life.
I have friends who seem to think every mare should be bred without regard to the quality of foal they get.
Yes, I am guilty of once breeding my favorite mare. But she has so many really wonderful qualities and I intend to keep her daughter for life, too.
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 12:58 pm:
Hey Erica
Agreed, about the already flooded market of unwanted horses... should have stated it that way. PMU farms are just adding to the problem of unwanted foals, ie the ones who do not sell the offspring for meat! Gotta hate that aspect of it, too!
And, I would not call it "guilty" of once breeding your favorite mare, unless it was "guilty" of responsively breeding a favorite mare for your family... sounds like lucky horses to me.
Nancy
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 2:43 pm:
Nancy well spoken.Had to watch 4 beautiful Belgin mares go to slaughter last week they were both PMU mares and could not find homes! What in the world did people do BEFORE premarin and who ever came up with it's use in the 1st place. I have had cancer twice and rejected the use of premarin and chose other means! If we accept what is and never challenge things nothing will ever change and that is just wrong!! Cindy
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 5:49 pm:
as usual, oops, on part of my post. I think I credited jojo with posts from Erika... sorry about that, ladies!
Nancy
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 6:05 pm:
The sales of Premarin have DrOpped off significantly, not because people have become aware of what it is but because the drug comes with a boat load of nasty side effects, including risk of heart attack, stroke, breast cancer and others. The NIH did a women's health study a few years back and the results were widely publicized, thus the DrOp in sales. In the other thread, where this topic got started, I pointed out that there is a plant based alternative. Unfortunately, consumers and physicians aren't as aware of this alternative as Premarin, simply because it has not been on the market as long and physicians are sometimes reluctant to prescribe a new drug that does the same thing as a drug that's been around for a while. If we, as consumers, do our research and bring what we learn to our doctors, most would be willing to listen and at least consider the alternative prescription to see if it's the right thing to do for their patients.
One other thing: there is some pretty good research on the effects of Black Cohosh lessening some of the symptoms of menopause. It's widely available at any drug or health store, so it's another alternative to discuss with your doctor...and horse friendly too!
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 7:18 pm:
Thanks, Fran, for stating one of my thoughts on the fact that Premarin is not the drug it was hoped to be when first introduced! I would think that is why Wyeth Ayerst "bipassed" Doctors and started running commercials with the likes of Patti Labelle telling people to ask for PremPro(a bit of a name change that does not sound as much like urine)! And I, also , have to think that since there has been campaigning by various groups to let women know what the drug is , that it has also had an effect on women making choices for alternatives! I'm sure you are right about the facts that Premarin is a risky drug, though.
Nancy
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 7:54 pm:
Nancy, I've got to correct you once again (sorry to be a stickler)...Wyeth didn't bypass doctors when they marketed the drug, running commercials was just one facet of the marketing campaign. All drug companies use multifaceted efforts to educate consumers and physicians. All drugs have risks and side effects and while I personally wouldn't chose to use this drug, it does benefit many women, with few or no side effects. That's why it's so very important to make an informed decision about any drug (or herbal remedy, for that matter).
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 8:32 pm:
No problem Fran... I realize that drug companies use "multi faceted efforts" to "educate consumers and physicians." But, I do not stand corrected on either of your "corrections!" Wyeth started these commercials when their drug sales began to decline! I guess two people can look at the same info. and interpret in different ways!
Nancy
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 11:18 pm:
Going back to the "by-product" of this drug, the foals, there have been marketing "rules" put in place that make it even harder for the ranchers to find homes for the foals.
There were several non-profit organizations around the country that helped the ranchers find homes for the babies. Organizations like FANI and FoalQuest worked their butts off every year to take pictures of the foals, post them on the web, collect the adoption fees, and even arrange transportation of foals to homes all across the country.
Now, from what I understand, ranchers are not allowed work with any organization that call themselves a "rescue" or "adoption agency", anything that would presume that the foals are in danger. Which is a double edged sword, because the foals may not initially be in danger, but if the ranchers don't get help to place the foals, then the only option they have is to send them to an auctionhouse.
Most of these organizations had to fold, because it was made so hard. FANI was able to change their name, and are still in operation, but I don't think they arrange foal DrOps all over the country any more. I think their main function is to put prospective buyers in contact with the farmers.
Anyway, just wanted to throw another angle to the situation out there.
Nicole
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 2, 2006 - 9:22 am:
Hey Nicole
You throw in a very interesting aspect of the problems of PMU production. But, did you know that some PMU farms sell their foals routinely as meat. Transportation, as well as the end result is less than humane! At these farms, adoption is not much of an option. I doubt that it is an option at all, but I must say it that way, in case Fran needs to correct me
Nancy
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 2, 2006 - 9:43 am:
If any of you are interested, check out the following links. These are all PMU horses bred by the "new" type of PMU ranchers. Read on the Rutgers site about the life of the mares on the farms they purchase foals from.
As stated before, one of the PMU foals went for $11,000 dollars at their auction last year--that ain't meat!
One would hope that with values like that foal, the horses become the primary focus, the Premarin the by-product.
Wish all PMU farms were as well managed as these!
https://web.mac.com/ru_horses/iWeb/Site/Welcome.html
https://www.earlydawnsporthorses.com/
https://www.ravineranchsporthorses.com/
https://www.hiattfarms.com/
It took a long time to convince me that this could be done well, and I think these farms are good role models.
Erika
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 2, 2006 - 10:28 am:
No Nancy, I think we are in complete agreement as to the end result...too many foals and mares with not enough good homes to take them resulting in many of these horses being inhumanely shipped to slaughter. I wish that more PMU farms would model themselves after Erikas good examples, but it's my understanding that this is not yet so.
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 3, 2006 - 10:17 am:
Erika L
I wish that there were enough of owners like you who could provide for these PMU foals, but no matter how "humane" these PMU Farms are that you listed, there will never be enough owners for all those foals born every year to all those farms!
And, Fran, I will have to concede one "correction" of yours...ie, after some thought, and one very small and unscientific "survey" yesterday ( I had a recovering colic at a very large barn,and while I walked, temped, etc, I asked all around what they thought... one was a lady who does drug studies for new drugs that are introduced onto the market, and she agreed with you) I do believe that the DrOp in sales of Premarin(Prempro)is due mainly to the side effects!I have had two sick horses this week, as well as one I found neglected by the owner I had given one to, so I think I was very sensitive, and probably in need of some of that Black Cohosh! You just stay "a stickler". I think I can take it now... both horses are better, and I'm bringing the other one back home! I still stand very firmly against the production of pregnant mare urine, and I pray that one day, perhaps in my children's lifetime, there will be no such thing... my girls already think that it is barbaric to do such a thing. And, I hope, between the attractive commercials about what Premarin can do for you, and the farms who are successful$$$$ at what they do, that young women will see thru all that is out there, and make better choices! My girls already have a different way of eating, and looking at all meds, so I have much hope for the future! I hope that there will be more women, like Cindy O Dell who make other choices! Just a quick note in closing, every one of my friends who were taking Premarin (Prempro) were so appalled when I told them what they were taking(no assault,just information), that they all (100%) went to their Doctors and had themselves put on something else... one friend had quite a time with her body adjusting to the change and she was really miserable to the point of me feeling guilty about having been a part of her making the change!), but she persevered and now is fine on other meds.
I think that this has been a great discussion, and I hope that some women got, at least some useful knowledge from it so that they can make informed choices, even tho I did not list the sites that show the inhumane side of PMU farms....They are hard to watch, and I never watched another after seeing a documentary done on PMU farms. That was enough for me, but for you who look at these sites that Erika listed, please continue your research to see "the other side" before making a decision!
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 3, 2006 - 4:46 pm:
Nancy, if we all make an effort to educate friends & family, as we've all done here ( and I try to get the word out in other places as well, as have you), then eventually, the need WILL be reduced, although I'm sad to say, probably never eliminated. Thing is, I've not yet reached menopause, so I haven't walked in the shoes of the women who have, and I only know second hand how miserable it can be. So I hate to make too harsh of a judgement against anyone that is suffering so. We can only kindly and gently give people the most accurate information that's available and hope that they will make an informed decision on managing their health issues.
I'm so glad the horses you were caring for are better now! All the best to you!
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Member:
Redalert
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 3, 2006 - 5:21 pm:
Hey Fran
Thanks for the response... I couldn't have said it better(literally) ! And, you are talking to one of those women who has "walked in those shoes"!(TMI?) So, no judgement here!
The best to you, too!
Nancy
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