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  Discussion on Paying for a dead horse?!?
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Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2001 - 12:53 pm:

Hi all....

I seem to have gotten myself in a jam, and I dont know what my rights are.

In November, we took in a "camp horse" (you know where the horses go off to camp in the summer and go to homes in the area during the spring/winter/fall months.). The nice thing about these camp prgrams is that you're responsible for the upkeep of the horse but it's basically a free lease....and you also have the option to purchase the horse is you like them.

SO, that being said...we had a nice older quarter horse named Rebel. We really liked him a lot, and had put out feelers as to what it would entail to buy him. His purchase amount had been predetermined by his "value" on our lease contract. The terms of the original contract were that if the horse dies and it's from your neglect or abuse, you are liable for his "value" which in this case was $1800. But if the horse dies from natural causes, we aren't liable. That amount also happens to be his purchase price.

Well, we had agreed to buy him, and had a check in the mail, when later that day, he DIED. Totally sudden (of course we were devastated...), he had never been sick, and had no history of health problems. We immediately called our vet, and she came out to examine him (she determined he most likely died from a heart attack). Next I called the camp horse people, and they said they'd rip up the check no problem and they wanted a vet certificate that he was dead and died from natural causes.

So no big deal, right? We had also borrowed some tack from them, and I called them to arrange it's return, when they decided that since we had bought the horse, we should pay them $900, or half of the origonal purchase price. (they felt they were being fair).

My question is this: When does the point of ownership change? Did we "own" him when we said we wanted to purchase him and they agreed? (that was over the phone) or would the transaction be complete when they deposited my check? Do we have responsibility for any of the "value" of this horse since I feel we didnt own him at the time?

Also, the camp horse people have made it very clear that if I disagree with them on their $900, then they will take this to their atty. Is $900 worth a legal battle? HELP!

Thanks!
Daisy

Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2001 - 5:39 pm:

I would have just put a stop on the check, where is all this "lease" camp stuff written down. Stop the check and make them come after you for $900, then charge them for burying the animal. ($900).

Good luck!

Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2001 - 10:44 am:

I am afraid I would have to disagree. My understanding, but I am no expert, is that the sale is made as soon as money has changed hands. The post mark on the letter that contained the check constitutes payment at that time and since they have posession of the check: you paid them for a live horse. This is a freak thing and very unfortuante, however I think they are being very generous in splitting the price. The way I look at it is: Would you expect them to give you money back if he had died a week after you paid? I think the only thing you might have a legal stance on is if you drug it to court and could prove that they had agreed to return the money and then changed their mind, that may or may not stand in your favor in front of a judge.

Best of luck, but if it were me I would be pleased that they were willing to split the cost and realize that s&^% happens.

Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2001 - 12:09 pm:

Hello All,
I agree with Emily. Though legally I do not have a clue where you stand, I think we need first look at what are your moral obligations. You agreed to buy the horse and sent payment. I would think that makes the horse yours. There may be legal redresses for you as Emily mentions, but splitting the cost strikes me as a useful solution.
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2001 - 1:39 pm:

OK, what about with a registered horse? Doesnt ownership change when the registration papers are signed over and physically in the new owner's hands? The camp horse people said they wouldn't send me his papers until my check had cleared...does that change the scenario? Also, the money hadnt changed hands yet, the check was in the mail when the horse died.

Put this another way....if they hadn't cashed my check yet, wouldn't they have been within their rights to come take "their" horse back if they decided they didn't want to sell him to me? (if this was a simple sale arrangement)

Please don't get me wrong, I know that this is mostly aweful timing! But I also feel that since the people said, "no problem, we'll rip up the check", and now they are going back on that...I feel that they being greedy when I had to pay the costs of the vet check they wanted and also to have the horse hauled away.

Ugh, I hate this stuff.

Posted on Sunday, Feb 18, 2001 - 11:53 am:

Daisy, these are legal questions for the lawyer, I think I discussed the moral aspects: "You agreed to buy the horse and sent payment. I would think that makes the horse yours". Is there something wrong in what I said?
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Feb 18, 2001 - 4:19 pm:

This is a sad situation.

But I think getting half back for a horse you had sent payment on is more than fair. I think you may be pushing your luck and crossing the moral line going to court over this unfortunate incident.

~Barbara

Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2001 - 10:14 am:

I understand what you all are saying, I guess it's hard when emotions are high, and I was so relieved that this horrible situation wasn't going to cost me the ability to buy another horse (since on the day Rebel died, the people said they'd rip up the check). So in my mind, a very unfortuate situation got horribly worse when all of a sudden instead of AT LEAST having my $$, now I was "out" $900. I guess I didnt think about it morally...besides that I felt wronged because they had initally said they didn't require payment.

You all raise very important questions for me to think about....I have to call them tonight with a response, and I'm going to think long and hard before I call them.

I apreciate all the input, which is why I wrote about my situation in the first place. I have posted several times in the past, and have greatly appreciated the response. Sometimes it takes hearing the hard stuff from people you trust...

Dr. O, of course there wasn't anything wrong with what you said! Please blame any inadvertant "bad feelings" in my words on my hard head and high emotions.

Thank you everyone,
Daisy

Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2001 - 11:49 am:

Hi Daisy,

I'm sure we all understand what a traumatic event this has been. My only advice is that prior to buying another horse you have a thorough vet check done.


Teresa

Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2001 - 7:27 pm:

When they said that they would sell you the horse did they say it was free from injury/illness? if so that may be your "loophole". Personaly i would be quite angry if someone first said that they would rip up the cheque then go back on their word just for a quick buck. What would they have had if the horse had DrOpped dead at their place? Diddly squat! Offer them $200 or something for their trouble perhaps that way they still get their quick buck and you can afford a horse still.

Posted on Monday, Feb 19, 2001 - 8:43 pm:

Julie,
The one point you make that is worthy of contemplation is that they first said they would tear up the check. The fact they changed this IS a comment on their integrity, though we all say things in the "heat of the moment" that on careful reflection are foolish: I do not believe they had a moral responsiblity to return the check, though it was nice to offer it.

The rest of what you say renigs on taking responsibility for your actions: in this case the verbal and physical (writing and sending the check) agreement that she had bought the horse. The fact they were inconsistant does not change Daisy's responsibilities.

If you, Julie, had sold a car to someone, and they handed you a check, then they DrOve off the property and, through no fault of their own, had an accident on the way home that totaled the car, would you feel morally responsible to give them back their check?
DrO
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